11th Hour Playing Cards by EmilySleights52 & BillDavisMagic

[emilysleights52]

I had a brief skim of this thread and am not really sure if I want to enter it, but as a fellow creator I was curious about why this deck is priced at $20 each shipped to US backers. It has foil on the box, but apart from that its a pretty standard deck, why the high price tag?

Hey! So because of the marked deck design, custom courts and tuck box, the deck is a lot more expensive to create. I hope that answers your question!

[RelativityCards]

So because of the marked deck design...

Oh yeah! I had completely forgotten that they charge extra for all different backs... and I'm not being facetious.

[akicer]

I personally have no idea why Bill and Emily keep posting in thie forum.

It's a waste of time for them if they are trying to win support here. With what Emily said about the pricing (I'm referring to the "because of the marked deck design, custom courts and tuck box, the deck is a lot more expensive to create" part), it's fair to say she's new to playing cards world. Not her fault but I don't think I want to argue about that piece.

Bill answered with lengthy paragraphs that not answering any thing and not giving any useful information. Not answering the copycat accusation and only keep saying "i'm trying to be nice".

Emily, I don't know her but her reply here is in a similar fashion. Not constructive at all and not really getting anything anywhere, she's not discussing about the design itself even there are couple guys nice enough to raise questions about the design itself.

Guys just spend your effort to win more fans somewhere else guys, please just save all of us some time.

Can some Mod lock this thread? Again I don't see anything constructive going on in this thread.

[Adonael]

Holy crap, this guy has enough screws loose to start up a hardware store. I can almost see the crazy behind the eyes just from reading his nonsensical babble (as much as I could stand anyway). This may be a good time to remind others not to feed the trolls, they'll eat anything. I thought he was blacklisted, or was that another lunatic who just sounded similar due to the universal language of delusional insanity? Edit: Ah, I see, hopefully that is rectified at some point in the future.

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[Harvonsgard]

I thought he was blacklisted,

Blacklisted in the black list thread, yah. Banned from this forum, no.

[BaconWise]

Folks, I officially declare this thread...OFF THE RAILS. History has repeated itself by no fault of the creator (Emily) but rather by her collaborator (Bill).

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Let's put this one on ice. Put a fork in it - it's done. Shut it down. Kill it with fire.

[Strag]

Wow, after that last batch of ranting from "Bill" it's clear to me that I want nothing to do with him or anyone associated with him. That includes Emily. Go where you are wanted folks, it ain't here.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[PipChick]

I was telling Victor that you were the main commenter (from what I read on Bill's project) quoting problems. I do know that you're kind of known in the community for starting things so that's why I said "That's Pipchick" No hate, just stating facts. I understand you don't like my deck and that's fine.

ummm... but did you even actually read my comments in their entirety and understand what they were in reference to?? As many members have already pointed out several times to you, the general feelings of the community towards Bill stem from his words and actions made in this thread here... which, BTW, you'll notice was a thread started by *me* as a requested favor from Bill to help promote his deck in the begining - I suppose in that sense, yea, I guess I did/do "start things" That was, hands down, the biggest mistake I've ever made during my time here at UC and I sorely regret ever getting involved with Bill from the start... can you believe I actually spent the time and effort to open and write up such a positively glowing thread on HIS behalf for HIS project? A project that, prior to that thread, had recieved zero attention here at UC before he came to me to ask that I help him so that it'll reach funding... So yes, I did quote problems on his project page... problems Bill made himself here at UC and did so only after he then, in his vindictive nature, decided to drag out those problems publicly onto his own project page as a smear campagin against the UC community as a whole...

You seriously have no idea the number and extent of private messages that were exchanged between us - before and during the time in which Bill decided to turn all of this sideways and well after the olive branch had been extended and supposedly accpeted to start new - each and every one written with the uptmost respect, encouragement and support for Bill and his 'effing Pig deck all because I wholeheartedly believed in supporting such a noble cause... before I even made that first post that started the thread on his project, I even advised him to prepare himself of the community's response knowing that it'd likely recieve less than praisworthy criticism and how he could so that he'll be recieved favorable from the community. I spent more time and effort than I ever should have to provide any and all support I possibly could for him to make his debute as a new deck designer here as welcomed as possible and for his deck to be recieved positively in hopes that the extra visibility and promotion within our community would help his project reach it's fullest potential... and yet, months later, I'm STILL dealing with this BS... and now, from *you* - a person that a.) WAS NOT NOR EVER HAD BEEN INVOLVED and b.) DOESN'T KNOW ME or my role in the community. Yet despite that, continues to make assumptions about me as someone that "starts things" and stating that as "fact"... um, please do enlighten me and all of us with specifics to back up your unsubstantiated claims. And you're still seriously gunna paint yourself as a victim of being judged? With all due respect, take a good, long, hard look in the mirror gurl, cuz you need to get your facts straight.

Like Bill, your manipulation of half-truths taken out of context are being contorted to fit an outta whack sense of reality and are not only 100% false, but cuts especially deep considering all that I personally did for Bill, only to have him lash out the way that he had. He obviously has absolutely no idea how incredibly generous I was being in providing all the support that I had to him, both publicly and privately, as well as making such an effort to show restraint by remaining diplomatic with every honest intention of easing tensions to de-escalate the situation he took part in creating with his relentlessly antagonistic provocations against our members and the UC community as a whole - the same erratic, delusionally self-rightous behavior he is, not suprisingly, now also exhibiting - history has indeed repeated itself. I now know that all those efforts put forth on his behalf and for his benefit were all just futile attempts on my end to even think that I could reason with him and to try to put this nonsense into perspective.

But at this point, now with your comments made here and Bill's, I'm seriously at my wits' end with all of this and it only has further proven the age-old saying that "no good deed goes unpunished" - lesson learnt; I won't ever be extending any more time or effort in support of Bill for any of his own future projects nor those he may even in the slightest be associated/involved with, including yours, for any reason whatsoever. Sorry, but Outsider was right: "He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas" and you and your project are by extension of association, unfortunately, the collateral damage of Bill's mess.

I'm not even gunna give Bill the pleasure of a response to his taunts and challanges of my role as a mod - considered my hands washed of the matter and I strongly encourage Mike or any other mod to get involved because it's clear that at this point, any attemps at meaningful contributions I may be able to provide in the honest effort to diffuse this situation will only be met with contempt, scorn, mockery and more antagonizing taunts from Bill to undermine anything I say and/or do and I won't stand to deal with that for any longer as he again continues to spit in the face of me as a mod and the entire UC community.

I'm done.

[Magic Tapp]

Oh boy - I have just one thing to say. Don’t. Feed. The. Trolls.

[shkorc]

Oh, hai Bill. There you are. Didn't recognize you in the beginning

Feels bad for Emily...

[theCapraAegagrus]

Mods, how the heck did a blacklister get back on the forum and began spamming the hell out of his deck?

Black List doesn't really mean banned, but, Bill exhibited ban-able behavior IMO.

Claimed he was never coming back, and I agree that he has basically spammed this thread.

Was never blackisted.

In terms of returning, I changed my mind. You ever done that?

In terms of spamming, Mike (board owner) disagrees. This was just a manipulative ploy by PipChick you fell for, please think for yourself.

Thanks!

Yes, you are in fact Black Listed, collectively by this playing card community. That means we bring attention to projects that involve you, to insure the safety of our time and resources, in making sure that you receive as little support as possible.

No, I haven't done that, because I'm a man of my word. It's transparent that you are not. Color me surprised.

You are tantamount spamming. Mike informed you that, in a black-and-white literal sense, sure "you're not spamming". We can see through the literal translation and know exactly what you're trying to accomplish. The ONLY person being manipulative here is YOU. Your mind games don't work. This isn't a place for stupid people - which is why you should leave.

[Mike Ratledge]

He doesn't need to leave, I left him for us.

Emily, please don't take this personally, you are more than welcome to come here and promote your deck. Bill obviously decided that it was OK to taunt my moderators with what I said in private. Not cool...

Guilt by association is difficult to surmount, sorry.

Not sorry to have fractured your thread. I am sure that it is an odd read with Bill's posts removed. Bottom line, this is my place. My mods have 100% of my confidence and support. Third person I can remember me having to ban in more than six years.

[Decknowledgy]

Explain please:

1. How does a centered marking system benefit a magician while the more common marking systems are placed near the borders for easier visibility?

2. All magicians out there talk about the importance of subtlety of the marking system in order not to raise suspicion of the spectator; how is a deck that has different clock hand positions blatantly visible from card to card hide from the spectator?

There's my honest feedback on why this deck isn't practical for magicians

Sure thing!

1. It doesn't. It's simply a unique idea. Our would obviously not work as well in a spread or fan. But would be extremely useful for distance compared to those others or identification during specific effects.

2. Unlike blatantly obvious markings with no explanation, take the Daredevil deck or even smaller marked backs that have obvious markings, ours are hidden in the idea that TIME CHANGES as evidenced on all the different watches on each card, the very point.

But those weren't questions. Based on your last incorrect statement, they were jabs. Our deck quite simply wouldn't be practical for limited magicians.

Hope that helps!

I was commenting something about the criteria of banning people with such demeanor, but since Mike's already done that, I'm content. But just to let people know, the questions that I raised against the deck itself were questions asked by Instagram folks that were genuinely wondering how the marking system benefits card magic, and this dude---as a creator---just decides to treat the questions as jabs against his creativeness while I had totally put behind what had happened in the past and limited my comments to the deck alone. Anyways, I leave Bill's comments here for folks who are still wondering why the marking systems are like that.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Mike and the Mods do a good job of keeping this a safe place.

[Outsider]

Just going to say, the mods/admins here are unbelievably generous to have even allowed Bill a brief second (third? fifth?) chance considering he's not only conducted himself like a first-rate asshole, but also been outed as a dishonest businessman.

Especially annoying to me that mods who so obviously put time and effort into making this place welcoming to all, including antisocial weirdos like me, get the short end of the stick.

Emily, PipChick never went around "starting things", she took up the thankless task of defending forum members - including me - who were called out by name in Bill's rants on KS after his volatile behavior spilled over. Have you seriously seen the shit he said, the way he conducted himself? Is that someone you want yourself professionally associated with, a man who goes out of his way to chase off customers and write them off as insignificant? Do you truly blame her for defending her friends? After the absolutely saintly patience she had with Bill's uncivilized nonsense?

When I said he who lieth with dogs shall rise up with fleas, this is exactly what I meant. His fleas are now your fleas. If they itch, might I strongly suggest distancing yourself from bad actors like Bill and Daniel Madison who have gone out of their way to earn, many times over, their bad reputation. Nevermind the rotten attitude, robbing your customers (DM) and lying about where you got your art (BD) are things you should not allow yourself to ignore, because everyone with a functioning brain is going to assume you approve by association and may do the same things yourself.

Personally, I think maybe you see the situation you've gotten yourself into but wonder how you can back out now. You probably can't, but you can go another direction when the dust settles. Even if you don't like us, believe me when I say that if you choose to hitch your name to someone else's, you will always eat shit when they stir it up for you, everywhere you go. Look after yourself and don't let con men like Bill use you as a stepping stone. They have nothing to offer and will only leave you with their bad smell.

[akicer]

wait a sec... Is there a way to get Bill's comments back to the threads? Especially in the Pink Boar thread?

Without his smart words it's so hard to show newcomers what a nice guy he is

[Fud]

I had a brief skim of this thread and am not really sure if I want to enter it, but as a fellow creator I was curious about why this deck is priced at $20 each shipped to US backers. It has foil on the box, but apart from that its a pretty standard deck, why the high price tag?

Hey! So because of the marked deck design, custom courts and tuck box, the deck is a lot more expensive to create. I hope that answers your question!

Hey Emily, thanks for that explanation. A lot of people I ask about that go straight to 'premium materials', 'limited edition' etc - basically the same pitch each time. Thanks for being honest about what you place value in.

I don't have an invested interest in this debate, but a word of advice: always survey the market to see what the market expects before you price things. Custom courts are expected, custom tuck is expected - these things can't claim much premium anymore. I would argue that your courts are not actually custom enough to even be labelled as 'custom'.

The short of it is that it doesn't matter what you think a product is valued at, if the market won't pay it, its too high. Your current backer numbers show this to be true - the market does not agree with your valuation for your design.

On KS it seems a standard (1 foil, custom design) USPC deck is about $12-15 shipped. If you are printing in China you have lower production costs but have to increase for the tarriff, so it is about the same. If you are an established designer (Gio, Kings Wild), you command a $3-5 premium. If you are a first time creator you have a $1-2 deficit on the average. Simple market analysis.

I know ballpark what you are quoted for this deck, and if I were you i would aim to break even on the production run with KS and have decks in warehouse to sell later. That has a much better chance of success than trying to pull $6-8 profit per deck with such high prices.

Again I have no emotional vested interest in this project, but thought I would give some practical advice.

[emilysleights52]

I had a brief skim of this thread and am not really sure if I want to enter it, but as a fellow creator I was curious about why this deck is priced at $20 each shipped to US backers. It has foil on the box, but apart from that its a pretty standard deck, why the high price tag?

Hey! So because of the marked deck design, custom courts and tuck box, the deck is a lot more expensive to create. I hope that answers your question!

Hey Emily, thanks for that explanation. A lot of people I ask about that go straight to 'premium materials', 'limited edition' etc - basically the same pitch each time. Thanks for being honest about what you place value in.

I don't have an invested interest in this debate, but a word of advice: always survey the market to see what the market expects before you price things. Custom courts are expected, custom tuck is expected - these things can't claim much premium anymore. I would argue that your courts are not actually custom enough to even be labelled as 'custom'.

The short of it is that it doesn't matter what you think a product is valued at, if the market won't pay it, its too high. Your current backer numbers show this to be true - the market does not agree with your valuation for your design.

On KS it seems a standard (1 foil, custom design) USPC deck is about $12-15 shipped. If you are printing in China you have lower production costs but have to increase for the tarriff, so it is about the same. If you are an established designer (Gio, Kings Wild), you command a $3-5 premium. If you are a first time creator you have a $1-2 deficit on the average. Simple market analysis.

I know ballpark what you are quoted for this deck, and if I were you i would aim to break even on the production run with KS and have decks in warehouse to sell later. That has a much better chance of success than trying to pull $6-8 profit per deck with such high prices.

Again I have no emotional vested interest in this project, but thought I would give some practical advice.

Hey! Thanks for your response. Just because you may think our courts are not custom, it doesn't take away from the fact that they indeed, are. We have been in contact with USPCC for months and originally we were told to even price our deck higher. The courts are custom because watches are added and all the color is changed. Trust me, Bill and I have spent a long time trying to make the deck as cheap as possible. Hope that clears up some confusion

[emilysleights52]

Just going to say, the mods/admins here are unbelievably generous to have even allowed Bill a brief second (third? fifth?) chance considering he's not only conducted himself like a first-rate asshole, but also been outed as a dishonest businessman.

Especially annoying to me that mods who so obviously put time and effort into making this place welcoming to all, including antisocial weirdos like me, get the short end of the stick.

Emily, PipChick never went around "starting things", she took up the thankless task of defending forum members - including me - who were called out by name in Bill's rants on KS after his volatile behavior spilled over. Have you seriously seen the shit he said, the way he conducted himself? Is that someone you want yourself professionally associated with, a man who goes out of his way to chase off customers and write them off as insignificant? Do you truly blame her for defending her friends? After the absolutely saintly patience she had with Bill's uncivilized nonsense?

When I said he who lieth with dogs shall rise up with fleas, this is exactly what I meant. His fleas are now your fleas. If they itch, might I strongly suggest distancing yourself from bad actors like Bill and Daniel Madison who have gone out of their way to earn, many times over, their bad reputation. Nevermind the rotten attitude, robbing your customers (DM) and lying about where you got your art (BD) are things you should not allow yourself to ignore, because everyone with a functioning brain is going to assume you approve by association and may do the same things yourself.

Personally, I think maybe you see the situation you've gotten yourself into but wonder how you can back out now. You probably can't, but you can go another direction when the dust settles. Even if you don't like us, believe me when I say that if you choose to hitch your name to someone else's, you will always eat shit when they stir it up for you, everywhere you go. Look after yourself and don't let con men like Bill use you as a stepping stone. They have nothing to offer and will only leave you with their bad smell.

All I know, is that within the card community on Instagram (I'm not sure about any other platform, I mainly use Instagram) Pipchick has a reputation of starting arguments with many people. It's kind of like she's a meme. I talked to her in the past and she was very nice at pleasant to talk to at first! All I'm saying, is that for being in the community for awhile, I know of MANY people who want nothing to deal with her or her drama. They talk about it all the time. I don't hate her, I respect her. I just find it funny how everyone talks about Bill's reputation, while some of the people in this forum have a reputation they don't even know about. I know that a lot of you aren't fond of Bill or Madison, but I personally love them both. Why can't that be respected? If you don't like the deck, thats fine. You're allowed to not like the deck. But DO NOT try to tell me about prices for my deck. Bill and I have spent MONTHS finding the lowest price available...we aren't even making money from this deck. You may not think the deck has custom courts, but frankly, your opinion doesn't matter....USPCC declares them custom. We also have gold foil on the outside and inside of the tuck, and marked backs so the price is a lot more expensive. I respect you all, but please don't comment on something that you were not even a part of the progress. Trust me, we've spent months researching everything. The deck is $15 on Kickstarter, shipping is 5. That price was recommended to us by leaders in the industry, based on the components of the deck. Overall, this forum is pointless to me and I will not be returning. I just wanted to state my mind, because most people don't care enough to ask my side of the story. It's kind of pathetic. Have a great day/night. (You can block me if you want, I just wanted to let it be known that someone else is on a blacklist, besides Bill.

[akicer]

If you don't like the deck, thats fine. You're allowed to not like the deck. But DO NOT try to tell me about prices for my deck. Bill and I have spent MONTHS finding the lowest price available...we aren't even making money from this deck. You may not think the deck has custom courts, but frankly, your opinion doesn't matter....USPCC declares them custom. We also have gold foil on the outside and inside of the tuck, and marked backs so the price is a lot more expensive. I respect you all, but please don't comment on something that you were not even a part of the progress. Trust me, we've spent months researching everything. The deck is $15 on Kickstarter, shipping is 5. That price was recommended to us by leaders in the industry, based on the components of the deck. Overall, this forum is pointless to me and I will not be returning. I just wanted to state my mind, because most people don't care enough to ask my side of the story. It's kind of pathetic. Have a great day/night. (You can block me if you want, I just wanted to let it be known that someone else is on a blacklist, besides Bill.

That sounds like Bill.

I'm happy you will not return. Please keep your words.

[Outsider]

All I know, is that within the card community on Instagram (I'm not sure about any other platform, I mainly use Instagram) Pipchick has a reputation of starting arguments with many people. It's kind of like she's a meme. I talked to her in the past and she was very nice at pleasant to talk to at first! All I'm saying, is that for being in the community for awhile, I know of MANY people who want nothing to deal with her or her drama. They talk about it all the time. I don't hate her, I respect her. I just find it funny how everyone talks about Bill's reputation, while some of the people in this forum have a reputation they don't even know about. I know that a lot of you aren't fond of Bill or Madison, but I personally love them both. Why can't that be respected? If you don't like the deck, thats fine. You're allowed to not like the deck. But DO NOT try to tell me about prices for my deck. Bill and I have spent MONTHS finding the lowest price available...we aren't even making money from this deck. You may not think the deck has custom courts, but frankly, your opinion doesn't matter....USPCC declares them custom. We also have gold foil on the outside and inside of the tuck, and marked backs so the price is a lot more expensive. I respect you all, but please don't comment on something that you were not even a part of the progress. Trust me, we've spent months researching everything. The deck is $15 on Kickstarter, shipping is 5. That price was recommended to us by leaders in the industry, based on the components of the deck. Overall, this forum is pointless to me and I will not be returning. I just wanted to state my mind, because most people don't care enough to ask my side of the story. It's kind of pathetic. Have a great day/night. (You can block me if you want, I just wanted to let it be known that someone else is on a blacklist, besides Bill.

I'm not interested in a bunch of instagram gossip. Can you provide an example of PipChick lying in her business dealings? I'm not concerned with whether or not anyone likes Bill, I've repeatedly linked you to proof that he has dishonestly represented where his art came from, and you've repeatedly ignored that. As for DM, if you can't find people who got screwed by him, you are intentionally avoiding it, probably the same way Bill pretended to not know what spam is.

Why are you even bringing up courts, or foil, or anything else? I don't care, what I care about is blatant dishonesty. Until you can answer for why you would get into business with someone who does that the rest is just wind.

Truly, did you think a childish "nyah nyah I secretly know people who hate PipChick so there!" was going to impress anyone?

[akicer]

I read through the whole post again and now my impression is Emily is simply a Female Bill.

Similar in the following ways:
- Ego and arrogant about their designs (if you call it design, maybe couple month later we find out the clip from another site)
- Ignorant about the market
- Not taking any suggestions
- Not answering questions that they cannot answer
- jab around with nonsense
- wow, even the words/tone they speak are the same

Look at Emily's attitude towards PipChick, she first explained her post on FB group (which is obvious to me she meant "oh it's pipChick you know who she is lol"), and then explained that there's no hate. What she know about Pipchick is most likely from Bill or some other random guy without seeing any evidence (if there are, love to see). And she's comparing her hate to PipChick to our hate to Bill, while we provided the thread of pink pig to her and she ignored as a whole (like Bill ignore questions he cannot answer).

Don't pretend you are nice when you are actually not. Your are not a good actress and your words expose who you actually are.

Please, don't come back again.

[Decknowledgy]

The doors are free to use, Emily.

I'm not hating on you and I know you got tons of followers on Instagram, but to be honest, while you had a bunch of time replying to comments that you dislike yesterday, you had no intent in answering my question about the back design. Turns out it was Bill that replied and then took a jab at me saying that my question was a jab? OK, so that how y'all like it, coming here only to say how your deck design is the f**king best, refuse to take any feedback, and come here to seek fight. Well, if that's what you like to be associate with, so be it, this forum is not for you, and you could go back to your unbreakable brotherhood and sisterhood of The Malliance.

Typical Madison-like, the same typical manner when orders are not fulfilled and compained about.

[Outsider]

akicer, it's not just you. You'd think it a strange coincidence that two separate people share not only the same opinions and prejudices but the same tendency to descend into incoherent walls of text when they're cornered.

I also found it interesting that when I linked to the thread about Bill's clip art deck, she immediately referenced a "history" between us. Even the "your opinion doesn't matter"...she almost called me insignificant.

Is that you, Bill?

[Romeril]

....USPCC declares them custom.

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[jerichoholic]

I got a similar response about PipChick when I questioned why she was working will Bill on FB.

[Mike Ratledge]

wait a sec... Is there a way to get Bill's comments back to the threads? Especially in the Pink Boar thread?

Without his smart words it's so hard to show newcomers what a nice guy he is

Unfortunately it is an all or nothing switch type thing and I figured that he had been quoted enough to keep the context - mostly. In retrospect I likely should have been more selective, but there was so much trash it was easier to just remove him completely. The mods pointed out that same thing, sorry...

[theCapraAegagrus]

....USPCC declares them custom.

C1140605-5011-41A6-9B22-B20294A445C3.gif

I laughed too hard at this.

[CBJ]

Tons of red flags on this. Also, I would never back this because of the comments she's made about PipChick.

Add up the pledges... 3173 pledged, but the total says 6821


Jay

[RelativityCards]

Add up the pledges... 3173 pledged, but the total says 6821Jay

They did over $2000 one day, jumping from somewhere in the $3K range to $5K. I don't remember the number of backers at that point, but I remember running the numbers and seeing it was something like $80 per backer. Seems like heavy investment from somewhere, for sure. They might have picked up someone like Penguin. No idea.