SPOILERS Avengers SPOILERS Endgame SPOILERS

[theCapraAegagrus]

Alright, so not even 12 hours later, and I need to make a spoiler discussion thread...

There are 3 things that I don't initially like about Avengers: Endgame:

- Too many emotional and/or serious scenes being undercut by jokes/quips. This problem didn't exist in Infinity War, and it greatly confuses me as to why they would make such a change for this sequel.

- The short all-female scene. What's the point? Pander to feminists? Everyone should have everyone's back. It shouldn't be segregated by gender. Thankfully, this is the only such scene.

- Gamora 'returning to life'.

[theCapraAegagrus]

As for the things that I LOVE about this movie... There are too many. The highlights:

- The sacrifice and death of Black Widow. I pretty much saw it coming when ONLY Barton and Romanoff headed to Vormir, but that doesn't make it any less a narrative WIN for the MCU. While she's a character that I'm attached to, her presence as a "weak" Avenger has always bothered me. This is just a fitting end to a good character. I cried.

- The entire treatment of Tony Stark. When he came home, he didn't just forgive Rogers, or rejoin the team to stop Thanos. He started his family. He finally retired. His character is the mental and emotional center of the MCU. It payed off in every. Single. Way. He was the brains that made the plot possible, and the only one that could save the world in the end. When he died, I don't think I've ever cried that much watching a movie before.

- The entire treatment of Steve Rogers. The original wanted-poster boy of the MCU. I thought, again, that Thanos killed him with that one punch. The constant fight in the war. Wielding Mjolnir. Playing out the life that he wish he had, in the end. No more Black Widow. No more Iron Man. And no more Captain America (for Steve, at least).

- The return of The Decimated. I didn't expect that kind of entrance, and as CGI fights go, you literally can't get any bigger or any better than this. Wow. I can't really say anything better than it is the absolute definition of "epic".

- The pace. For a 3-hour movie, it lacks any downtime. The "slow" moments are emotional anchors. Every scene has a purpose and it's very clear that it couldn't be cut shorter because of the baggage that the finale needs to be a success.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Aside from my subjective opinions, there are people that claim "real serious plot holes" exist within the single linear timeline of the MCU. If you truly paid attention, most of it is explained by exposition earlier in the film, such as when they're naming movies that have dealt with alleged "time change".

Where this seems a logical fallacy is when Steve Rogers appears at the end... For characters like Thanos and Gamora, they existed in an alternate branch in time. An alternate reality. But, in the linear MCU, Rogers was always "a man out of time". Showing up as a 75-year old man (since he rekindled with Carter in 1970, as opposed to 1945) vacates the linear fashion of what we have seen over the last decade. I don't know if this is intentional, but to me it doesn't serve the narrative to the end of THIS STORY. Has he returned via the Quantum Realm at that age, from the other reality..? Now that would have made sense...

Trust me, I have literally thought about "plot holes" for hours. As the "science" of the MCU tells us, the primary concern with returning the Stones to when/where they were taken definitely holds water. The history changes are only supposed to affect alternate realities and/or dimensions, though. It's the Steve Rogers' ending that starts to really f&*k things up.

[guru]

- The short all-female scene. What's the point? Pander to feminists? Everyone should have everyone's back. It shouldn't be segregated by gender. Thankfully, this is the only such scene.

Same here...As this scene is already generating much discussion on the web, I think it is giving the movie more publicity.

- The entire treatment of Tony Stark. When he came home, he didn't just forgive Rogers, or rejoin the team to stop Thanos. He started his family. He finally retired. His character is the mental and emotional center of the MCU. It payed off in every. Single. Way. He was the brains that made the plot possible, and the only one that could save the world in the end. When he died, I don't think I've ever cried that much watching a movie before.

I cried as well. I think this movie has affected me much emotionally compared to any other out there.

[MagikFingerz]

Aside from my subjective opinions, there are people that claim "real serious plot holes" exist within the single linear timeline of the MCU. If you truly paid attention, most of it is explained by exposition earlier in the film, such as when they're naming movies that have dealt with alleged "time change".

Where this seems a logical fallacy is when Steve Rogers appears at the end... For characters like Thanos and Gamora, they existed in an alternate branch in time. An alternate reality. But, in the linear MCU, Rogers was always "a man out of time". Showing up as a 75-year old man (since he rekindled with Carter in 1970, as opposed to 1945) vacates the linear fashion of what we have seen over the last decade. I don't know if this is intentional, but to me it doesn't serve the narrative to the end of THIS STORY. Has he returned via the Quantum Realm at that age, from the other reality..? Now that would have made sense...

Trust me, I have literally thought about "plot holes" for hours. As the "science" of the MCU tells us, the primary concern with returning the Stones to when/where they were taken definitely holds water. The history changes are only supposed to affect alternate realities and/or dimensions, though. It's the Steve Rogers' ending that starts to really f&*k things up.

What about Loki escaping with the cube? That HAS to fudge things up.

EDIT: Another thing was that whole "the infinity stones create the timeline" speech of the Ancient One, which - if true - means it shouldn't be possible to destroy the stones like Thanos did.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Aside from my subjective opinions, there are people that claim "real serious plot holes" exist within the single linear timeline of the MCU. If you truly paid attention, most of it is explained by exposition earlier in the film, such as when they're naming movies that have dealt with alleged "time change".

Where this seems a logical fallacy is when Steve Rogers appears at the end... For characters like Thanos and Gamora, they existed in an alternate branch in time. An alternate reality. But, in the linear MCU, Rogers was always "a man out of time". Showing up as a 75-year old man (since he rekindled with Carter in 1970, as opposed to 1945) vacates the linear fashion of what we have seen over the last decade. I don't know if this is intentional, but to me it doesn't serve the narrative to the end of THIS STORY. Has he returned via the Quantum Realm at that age, from the other reality..? Now that would have made sense...

Trust me, I have literally thought about "plot holes" for hours. As the "science" of the MCU tells us, the primary concern with returning the Stones to when/where they were taken definitely holds water. The history changes are only supposed to affect alternate realities and/or dimensions, though. It's the Steve Rogers' ending that starts to really f&*k things up.

What about Loki escaping with the cube? That HAS to fudge things up.

EDIT: Another thing was that whole "the infinity stones create the timeline" speech of the Ancient One, which - if true - means it shouldn't be possible to destroy the stones like Thanos did.

Having read this earlier, and now having just come back from my 2nd viewing, I tried to pay particularly close attention to those time travel-relative expositions.

Loki's actions have inevitably opened a 2nd branch in time that, to me, seems destined to precipitate the Disney+ show. I can't understand any otherwise "logic".

RE: The Ancient One. Her exposition was particularly relative to the Time Stone. She specifically said that the Sorcerer Supreme uses it to PREVENT branches in time. Nothing about the other Stones creating/controlling time (unless not returned. So, Steve Rogers returning all Stones to where and when they were taken, does not violate the timeline in which Thanos destroyed them). It coincides with the Kronos paradox as explained by Professor Hulk.

A ton of Doctor Strange dialogue pays credence to the usage of the Time Stone and the "natural laws" that it violates. Stephen did this when breaking Wong free from the time constraints, to assist he and Mordo with defending Kaecilius and his zealots. If we try to make MCU science-magic match reality, then we're really not appreciating these movies.

Aside from this Steve Rogers business, I find that they did an apt job at conveying all of the necessary information to understand the "science" and make it feel believable.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Wait, so, thinking more into this...

Steve Rogers' presence at the end as Old Man Cap may not violate anything. He may have lived his life in an alternate reality, and THEN returned in another time/space to the "current" MCU timeline?

All I know is that at least a couple of non-singular-reality timelines HAD to have been created during this "time heist". Loki, Thanos/Gamora, and Old Man Cap.

It's bothersome only because it could alienate or invalidate what we know as the MCU circa 2008-2018. Weird stuff.

[MagikFingerz]

Wait, so, thinking more into this...

Steve Rogers' presence at the end as Old Man Cap may not violate anything. He may have lived his life in an alternate reality, and THEN returned in another time/space to the "current" MCU timeline?

That's how someone I know rationalized it too. My rebuttal was "How?". How does he "return" to anywhere else other than on that platform? Is another time machine created in his (new) alternate reality? Seems unlikely since this one only got created as a result of the events of Infinity War.

I can't see how it makes sense in my head. Though I'm fine with it, because the way it happened was perfect for the story.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Wait, so, thinking more into this...

Steve Rogers' presence at the end as Old Man Cap may not violate anything. He may have lived his life in an alternate reality, and THEN returned in another time/space to the "current" MCU timeline?

That's how someone I know rationalized it too. My rebuttal was "How?". How does he "return" to anywhere else other than on that platform? Is another time machine created in his (new) alternate reality? Seems unlikely since this one only got created as a result of the events of Infinity War.

I can't see how it makes sense in my head. Though I'm fine with it, because the way it happened was perfect for the story.

Fair point.

I feel better about myself now that he's 75, and not a fit-ass 100-year old man.

[rousselle]

Regarding the all-female heroes segment: we talked a lot about the movie afterward (my kids, my ex-wife, and a family we go to see movies with, so: three boys, three girls, and then among the parents, two men and two women), and one of the kids pointed out that the Russos like to put a lot of "poster scenes/shots" in their MCU movies, and that the very brief segment with all the female heroes was simply one of those. And... yeah, in that context, it makes *perfect sense*. The segment isn't long, and doesn't really make much of a statement, other than that they are there. The movie *is* chock full of such moments, and why not have an all-female poster moment?

That said, one of the other parents and I agreed that it was absolutely a signal of things to come from the next phase of the MCU films. As another of the grown-ups at the table noted, when Cap hands over the shield, he hands it to Sam, not to Bucky. (Both Bucky and Sam were Captains America at different points in the comic's history, but Bucky held back and nudged Sam forward. Absolutely in keeping with the pro-diversity trend we've been seeing.)

Frankly, I don't mind it. It's all good. It did feel a little pandering, at first, but if it brings more young fans into the theater because more of them identify with the new wave of heroes, so be it.

I've got thoughts on the timeline issues, as well, but it's late and I'm off to bed. More soon.

--but, yeah, a fine piece of entertainment, all in all.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Regarding the all-female heroes segment: we talked a lot about the movie afterward (my kids, my ex-wife, and a family we go to see movies with, so: three boys, three girls, and then among the parents, two men and two women), and one of the kids pointed out that the Russos like to put a lot of "poster scenes/shots" in their MCU movies, and that the very brief segment with all the female heroes was simply one of those. And... yeah, in that context, it makes *perfect sense*. The segment isn't long, and doesn't really make much of a statement, other than that they are there. The movie *is* chock full of such moments, and why not have an all-female poster moment?

That said, one of the other parents and I agreed that it was absolutely a signal of things to come from the next phase of the MCU films. As another of the grown-ups at the table noted, when Cap hands over the shield, he hands it to Sam, not to Bucky. (Both Bucky and Sam were Captains America at different points in the comic's history, but Bucky held back and nudged Sam forward. Absolutely in keeping with the pro-diversity trend we've been seeing.)

Frankly, I don't mind it. It's all good. It did feel a little pandering, at first, but if it brings more young fans into the theater because more of them identify with the new wave of heroes, so be it.

I've got thoughts on the timeline issues, as well, but it's late and I'm off to bed. More soon.

--but, yeah, a fine piece of entertainment, all in all.

That's fair, RE: all-female 'Avengers poster'. It's just one small moment that, for me, detracts from the movie. With a movie chock-full of character and fan service, it doesn't hurt it much. There are over 100 callbacks, verbally and visually, mostly in the 3rd Act here. The entire experience is a fanboy/girl's sweetest dream. Marvel Studios and the Russo Bros. NAILED IT.

Cap hands the shield to Falcon because Bucky is the White Wolf, now, though. I think it makes logical sense. And, as you mention, they were both Captain America in the comics. So it's not unprecedented.

What's the best part of this movie? I pretty much have a 'nerdgasm' during the entire Big-3 vs Thanos battle and onward. From the moment Tony picks Cap up, and they meet Thor on the ledge, throughout the end. Thor summoning lightning, dual-wielding his hammer and axe, Cap dual-wielding the hammer and his shield, the moment The Decimated heroes return... I'm tearing up just typing about it now.

This movie is close to a masterpiece. Probably as close as it could ever come. I don't think there's a way to make a unilateral masterpiece to end this saga. The fact that they came THIS close to perfection is a true testament to how much work was put in. There is not a better-acted Marvel movie. You can see how every actor and actress poured their souls into this performance. I am elated every time I think about it.

I'll have to see it a few more times in theaters (when tickets become available lol).

[MagikFingerz]

What's the best part of this movie? I pretty much have a 'nerdgasm' during the entire Big-3 vs Thanos battle and onward. From the moment Tony picks Cap up, and they meet Thor on the ledge, throughout the end. Thor summoning lightning, dual-wielding his hammer and axe, Cap dual-wielding the hammer and his shield, the moment The Decimated heroes return... I'm tearing up just typing about it now.

This movie is close to a masterpiece. Probably as close as it could ever come. I don't think there's a way to make a unilateral masterpiece to end this saga. The fact that they came THIS close to perfection is a true testament to how much work was put in. There is not a better-acted Marvel movie. You can see how every actor and actress poured their souls into this performance. I am elated every time I think about it.

Yes. All of this

[Outsider]

I think it lived up to the hype, which is really saying something. I generally agree with TwoPiece's few "complaints" as well.

The all-female charge could have been "fixed" by simply doing the exact same scene, but with a handful of men saying something like "and we got her back too". It makes sense that Marvel wants to highlight that they do indeed have a number of women in the cast, but it makes less sense that every male just said "nah I got better things to do right now".

Also, Gamora. If there's some kind of hard rule against someone sacrificed to the soul stone being resurrected later, then she should be forced to be dead in any time post-Infinity War since this movie goes to pains to make clear that you absolutely do not overwrite timelines, only fork them, and you cannot cause a paradox. Ergo Gamora's death should have been necessary to this timeline and...you get the idea. Or if bringing past self forward circumvents, then Nat should have enjoyed the same privilege.

I'm mildly non-plussed by the idea of future MCU being forcefully "diversified". Sounds fine in theory, in practice Star Wars has been so absurdly ham-handed with it that it sounds like a recipe for eye rolls.

Highlight for me is Captain American using Mjolnir. Just awesome.

[rousselle]

One thing about the all-female-hero-poster shot: no Black Widow. And, since we know that character is coming back at some point (whether as a prequel or not, and I'm expecting it *won't* be a prequel), it's a real shame.

Just a thought.

[MagikFingerz]

I liked this video in explaining the time travel stuff (what they did and didn't do right):

[theCapraAegagrus]

One thing about the all-female-hero-poster shot: no Black Widow. And, since we know that character is coming back at some point (whether as a prequel or not, and I'm expecting it *won't* be a prequel), it's a real shame.

Just a thought.

It's a prequel. Taskmaster as villain.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'm gonna see this again on Friday and Saturday (maybe Sunday, too).

[theCapraAegagrus]

Apparently, Tony Stark snapping the Nano Gauntlet returned all 2014 characters (including Gamora - hence why she was being searched for) to their correct time and space with no memory of the future, therefor clipping that branch.

Allegedly, only ONE alternate reality exists, where both Loki escapes Avengers Tower with the Tesseract and Cap lives out his fantasy life with Peggy.

This is good news, because it 'logically' makes sense, and we don't need more than 1 alternate reality to explore the multiverse. It could have gotten too confusing.

[rousselle]

So, he was able to bring Gamora back, but not Black Widow?

I call shenanigans!

[theCapraAegagrus]

So, he was able to bring Gamora back, but not Black Widow?

I call shenanigans!

Noooooooooo.

He sent Gamora BACK to 2014. That's why Quill was "searching" for her at the end of Endgame.

[MagikFingerz]

Does that mean Thanos was also sent back to 2014? Because if not, then that's a new branch right there. Or would that also be part of the Loki/Cap alternate timeline?

[Outsider]

I guess what it means is that Thanos, his ship, and his forces, were all sent back to 2014, alive - not only that, but those already killed by the Avengers and the destroyed ship were resurrected and restored back to the original timeline. Anything less than that and it splits off.

But wait! Cap returns to the present with his shield, which he bequeaths to Falcon. But his shield in this timeline was broken into pieces by Thanos, so he stole his shield from the Loki timeline, which I guess the Avengers are now treating as their dumpster timeline.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Does that mean Thanos was also sent back to 2014? Because if not, then that's a new branch right there. Or would that also be part of the Loki/Cap alternate timeline?

He sent every character that traveled FROM 2014 using the Quantum Tunnel BACK to 2014 to clip the branch.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I guess what it means is that Thanos, his ship, and his forces, were all sent back to 2014, alive - not only that, but those already killed by the Avengers and the destroyed ship were resurrected and restored back to the original timeline. Anything less than that and it splits off.

But wait! Cap returns to the present with his shield, which he bequeaths to Falcon. But his shield in this timeline was broken into pieces by Thanos, so he stole his shield from the Loki timeline, which I guess the Avengers are now treating as their dumpster timeline.

The underlined is correct.

Basically, the MCU can use this 1 alternate reality to do whatever they want. Bring Cap's shield back, create Mysterio, etc etc etc. Which is why the Nano Gauntlet news is good, because we don't need more than 1 alternate reality if they're gonna use it to do whatever they want anyways. More than 1 alternate reality would just get way too confusing, even for a hardcore fan such as myself.

Basically, in Earth-616 or whatever we wanna call this 2nd reality, anything and mostly everything that took place after 1970 will be different (since that's when Cap stays with Peggy). So, there's no Iron Man, Hulk, Thor coming to Earth, etc etc etc. it's gonna get super weird from here on out.