Divine Art White Gold Edition (Giveaway contest live on UC)

[guru]

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[04/24]: Giveaway Contest URL here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9892
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Hi All,

This is just to let you all know that Divine Art Playing Cards - White Gold edition launches on Thursday, April 20, 2017 @ 11 PM AEST (UTC + 10).




It comes with a completely redesigned tuckbox and card back while keeping the faces same as the Original deck. On shipping front, I will be working with the same fulfillment partner and decks will come wrapped in bubble wrap and shipped in a box.

On stock & handling, it will be again 330 GSM German Black Core Card stock which is top of the line cardboard available, and the cards will have linen air cushion finish on one side. We've tried to improve the handling even though the deck comes with gilded edges and gold foil but please note that it is not comparable to Metaluxe. I believe USPCC is the clear leader here, because they are able to do the foiling even on a very thin card stock (e.g. Gold Rarebit) without getting the impression on the front faces. Still, you'll see improvement in terms of handling when compared to the first deck and/or any other decks out there with foiled backs.

There are going to be pretty nice EB tiers available, and as I'm working directly with the printer (and have got no major overheads unlike others), you're going to see a better deal on Kickstarter than most other projects.

Please feel free to reach out to me for any question. Hope to see you all there.


Regards,
Sunish

[sms69x]

That's great news!! I'll be there.
You do well on improving the tuck box, the box of the first edition is the only "not so good" thing of that deck.

[guru]

That's great news!! I'll be there.
You do well on improving the tuck box, the box of the first edition is the only "not so good" thing of that deck.

Thanks you. Much appreciated.

Here is the link to the preview page.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/su ... n=b2f2754c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please feel free to review and let me know if something doesn't look right or for any other issues.

[sms69x]

The page looks good, I just think there are too few pledge tiers... You should consider adding the 3 and 4 decks tier at least..

[guru]

Launched. Here is the URL:

http://kck.st/2oYThuu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please do share and support the project.



(Kickup added by PT. )

[guru]

Hi All,

I received couple of questions from a few, so thought of jotting down my thoughts here. I will also be creating a FAQ on project page soon.

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1. Are you printing with MPC? -

Ans. -No, this deck is not being printed by MPC. VJ mentioned in his review that printer might be MPC but it was his own personal opinion.

2. How are you offering these specs at the given price?

Ans.- I don't have any major overheads as some other companies. Though I'm treading on wafer thin margins but I'm working directly with the printer & another firm specializing in gilding. Because, there are no middlemen in between, I'm able to get very good rates from them.

3. What if the quality is subpar?

Ans.- Quality means different things to different people. I've already delivered a similar project. Card stock used is 330 GSM German Black Core. It is one of the best Card Stock available with top notch quality, durability & have longer lifespan as comapred to others. To give an example, most of the projects launched on Kickstarter have the GSM range between 300-305 and just a few touch 310. USPCC, LPCC & EPCC do not mention the GSM range by the way. Card thickness is, indeed, important and that's the reason Casinos still look for stringent thickness requirements.

David Kenney maintains his card thickness post and in his recent review of Divine Art deck, he mentioned that 10 cards of this deck has a thickness of 3.11 mm which is really thick and way beyond Casino Stocks. Only Robusto from EPCC is ahead of this stock.

Check here: http://magicorthodoxy.weebly.com/magic- ... cards-feel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Divine Art deck Review: https://youtu.be/6fvppdMroJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the tuckbox front, I'm working with the printer to procure a better cardboard paper this time around. Technically, it will have a range of 350-400 GSM while Divine Art deck's tuck was on 300 GSM Black Board Paper. Booklet also made that tuck a bit big and White Gold edition won't have the booklet included.

Handling quality - Due to the constraints of foiling and gilding, it is not that good as compared to Metaluxe, but it is not bad either. Reviewers have already commented on the handling. Metaluxe uses a very different foiling process which require special tooling, and over the years USPCC has perfected the process. They can even do foiling on very thin stocks without making it visible from the front. Some other printers have still got this issue, but it was taken care of while printing Divine Art deck.

Foiling & gilding - It is a special process for gilding and not every other vendor can do this process. Best thing is to compare Divine Art deck with other gilded decks keeping both side by side.

Foiling is done on a high-end machinery using top quality Gold foil. It can withstand card abuse, extensive shuffles where you might see foil getting off from cards done by other printers when put through the same abuse or extensive shuffling.


4. Still, it is being printed in China. I don't see good quality cards coming from there.

Ans.- Refer #3 above. Also, you should be receiving TITANS Robber Baron & Legal Tender soon, and both of these are printed in China. Did you ask Jody or Jackson the same question? What if Divine Art White Gold is from the same or even a better press?

I believe some backers & collectors are fine with delays, deck specs being changed, high deck + shipping prices and eternal wait for the decks to arrive on US shores but still like to poke fingers at new creators or projects such as this one. May be, they are okay with the status quo.

Thanks for reading as well as your support. Please spread the word around about this project if you like what you see and want to see this deck produced.

PS: There are some companies who have got monopolistic mindset as they dissuade vendors to work with anyone else except them. It may have even worked for them as they arm-twisted certain vendors in the past but it can't work everywhere and everytime. I think they need to keep their eyes, ears open & sense the change in the air.



Regards,
Sunish

[RichK]

Backed for 2 decks. The black deck is a great foiled and gilded deck. Nice heavy weight card. Don't be concerned because you'll be really impressed at the quality.

[rousselle]

Likewise, I backed the black deck for three and I'm backing the white deck for three. It's true that with foil and gilding, these don't fan as well as they might, but I've got one deck "in rotation" with the decks my three boys and I play games with every night, and this deck is very attractive and very sturdy. Holds up great for regular play.

That said, I still wish guru would discuss the manufacturer he selected, as it will help me to better evaluate other projects, as well.

[sinjin7]

10 cards of this deck has a thickness of 3.11 mm which is really thick and way beyond Casino Stocks. Only Robusto from EPCC is ahead of this stock.

In regards to their Robusto stock, I find it dismaying that EPCC would put out a statement like, "simply put, it’s the thickest, strongest, most elegant stock ever used for playing cards." (I am quoting EPCC directly here).

It's dismaying because 1) EPCC clearly didn't do sufficient research to support this claim, 2) it's a false statement, and 3) that people will so readily take EPCC's word as gospel truth. I have Modiano poker decks that are made on their Triplex stock and it is significantly thicker and stiffer than Robusto. When I play poker with these Triplex decks, I actually have to use an automatic card shuffler because these are literally too difficult to bridge shuffle by hand, that's how thick and stiff they are. I have dunked half a card into a glass of water for a couple of seconds and then pulled it out and wiped it off and it didn't even warp. Robusto (which is a stock that I actually like) does not come anywhere close to the thickness and stiffness of Modiano Triplex stock. Let's just set the record straight and stop perpetuating an EPCC marketing myth.

As for GSM measurments, its not truly indicative of how thick a stock is, it's really more of an industrial measurement. I think this is why the USPCC and some other companies don't bother with this measurement. GSM simply means Grams per Square Meter. It does not take into account how compressed a sheet of paper is, just its weight. So if you have a deck on 310 GSM paper that measures 16.2 mm thick, one might think that another deck on 340 GSM paper will be thicker. But if the 340 GSM paper was compressed at a much higher pressure, it would result in a thinner stock, with the deck measuring only, say, 15.7 mm thick. So while it would be a thinner deck, it would be denser and heavier, with superior snap and more durable. Higher GSM doesn't always mean thicker stock, and thicker stock isn't always better. That's why I generally disregard GSM measurements, you really don't know about the quality of the stock on a deck until you can feel and measure it with your hands.

[guru]

10 cards of this deck has a thickness of 3.11 mm which is really thick and way beyond Casino Stocks. Only Robusto from EPCC is ahead of this stock.

In regards to their Robusto stock, I find it dismaying that EPCC would put out a statement like, "simply put, it’s the thickest, strongest, most elegant stock ever used for playing cards." (I am quoting EPCC directly here).

It's dismaying because 1) EPCC clearly didn't do sufficient research to support this claim, 2) it's a false statement, and 3) that people will so readily take EPCC's word as gospel truth. I have Modiano poker decks that are made on their Triplex stock and it is significantly thicker and stiffer than Robusto. When I play poker with these Triplex decks, I actually have to use an automatic card shuffler because these are literally too difficult to bridge shuffle by hand, that's how thick and stiff they are. I have dunked half a card into a glass of water for a couple of seconds and then pulled it out and wiped it off and it didn't even warp. Robusto (which is a stock that I actually like) does not come anywhere close to the thickness and stiffness of Modiano Triplex stock. Let's just set the record straight and stop perpetuating an EPCC marketing myth.

As for GSM measurments, its not truly indicative of how thick a stock is, it's really more of an industrial measurement. I think this is why the USPCC and some other companies don't bother with this measurement. GSM simply means Grams per Square Meter. It does not take into account how compressed a sheet of paper is, just its weight. So if you have a deck on 310 GSM paper that measures 16.2 mm thick, one might think that another deck on 340 GSM paper will be thicker. But if the 340 GSM paper was compressed at a much higher pressure, it would result in a thinner stock, with the deck measuring only, say, 15.7 mm thick. So while it would be a thinner deck, it would be denser and heavier, with superior snap and more durable. Higher GSM doesn't always mean thicker stock, and thicker stock isn't always better. That's why I generally disregard GSM measurements, you really don't know about the quality of the stock on a deck until you can feel and measure it with your hands.

Hi Sinjin7,

Yes, you're absolutely right. I've also come across a deck with stock more thicker than Robusto and it may be a marketing or branding statement made by EPCC, but Robusto is still one of the best available stocks in terms of both quality & durability out there. I did try to look for a similar stock in German market but could not find it.

First, I apologize in case my post came across as perpetuating some marketing myth or giving undue importance to the GSM measurement. Truth be told, the above post is just a continuous stream of thoughts, ramblings & a bit of emotional outburst and nothing else. That said, I still prefer GSM measurement and I don't agree with your take on the reason why some companies don't bother with this measurement.

As for GSM measurments, its not truly indicative of how thick a stock is, it's really more of an industrial measurement. I think this is why the USPCC and some other companies don't bother with this measurement.

USPCC used to use stuff closer to 310-320 gsm - but today, they don't even measure their stock in gsm. They're the 800-pound gorilla of the US market, so they can dictate their own terms to the market if they want to, so they do. USPC is using a card stock around 300 GSM today for mass-produced Bicycles. USPC has a very high post-consumer recycled content in their paper because they're required to by US law - if they didn't, they'd go for the lowest recycled content percentage they could reasonably afford for improved paper quality. But, there are places out there in the World even today where it is not a real requirement to use a high post-consumer recycled content, and this is the reason of that particular card stock being more durable & long-lived in comparison. It is as simple as that. Don't quote me on this or ask how I know - I do.

Now, why do other companies not use GSM measurement. My hypothesis is that they are copying USPCC even though when they place the order for procuring the paper, they ask for specific GSM unit. It is also due to marketing/branding 101. Looks more cool to say it is <x> finish than use some tech jargon.

USPCC makes exactly two finishes - Smooth and Embossed. They sell each under a variety of names, but that's it - the finish is the texture on the paper, and USPCC only makes two kinds of textures, regardless of whatever they may call them.

The texture used to be created by the cloth roller brushes that applied the coating to the surface of the cards, and the texture was actually in the coating, not in the paper - it's why many of the texture names used still to this day are named after types of fabric used. But before the end of the 1970s, in an effort to save money by not having to replace worn-out, gummed-up cloth rollers so often, they were replaced with steel rollers - the texture of the cards is now created when the paperboard is created by pressing two layers of paper together with a layer of graphite-laced glue between them (the graphite is what keeps the cards opaque under bright light), before the coating or the ink is applied. Those rollers pressing the paper together are either smooth (to make Smooth Finish papers) or bumpy (to press dimples into the paper and make Embossed Finish papers). These papers are marketed under a variety of names - Smooth is sometimes called Ivory, Embossed is known alternately as Air Cushion, Cambric, Linoid, Linen, etc. But it's been decades since there was any genuine difference between the finishes USPC uses.

The above came from a very knowledgable source, btw.

Anyways, the thread seemed to have diverged from the main topic. Sorry Mods. Let me get it back on track now.

All - I'm thinking to do a giveaway campaign. Kickstarter rules prohibit any raffles or giveaways but still I've seen it happening in parallel to Kickstarter projects. I messaged Kirk Slater yesterday and, now understand, how he executed one recently.
I've also messaged Kardify and awaiting their response. If you've come across any good contest on Kickstarter/Indiegogo, please let me know so that I can take a look. I don't want to do anything that goes against Kickstarter rules but want to work bounded by the constraints defined in the system.

dapcwg_contest.png (511.22 KiB) Viewed 2183 times

My initial thoughts are to offer these 3 decks. Given, White Gold is based on Indian theme, the rewards are all Indian decks. One is the first and Original Divine Art limited edition, second is Archduke Eagle Back deck which is again a rare deck that comes with a different finish called Quantum Grain on 315 GSM German paper stock. Third is one of the most rare decks out there which is a whist pack reproduced from a 17th-18th Century deck. It has 52 cards all hand painted and lacquered and they come in a hand-crafted wooden box. Let me know if anyone has got an idea on how to execute some kind of contest.


Regards,
Sunish

[guru]

Likewise, I backed the black deck for three and I'm backing the white deck for three. It's true that with foil and gilding, these don't fan as well as they might, but I've got one deck "in rotation" with the decks my three boys and I play games with every night, and this deck is very attractive and very sturdy. Holds up great for regular play.

That said, I still wish guru would discuss the manufacturer he selected, as it will help me to better evaluate other projects, as well.

Thanks Allan for pitching in here. I'm glad that you're using it for regular play. This is important to understand the quality & durability of the card stock.
I can't discuss the printer because there are certain things that adds complexity to the equation which may not be obvious to you or anyone here. This printer has done the work for top companies but I'm not looking to gain leverage by adding to the Kickstarter campaign that " This is the same printer as used by <xxxxxxx>". I'm sure you and others here are already having decks produced by this printer in their collection or may receive a few this year, who knows

That being said, the stock used for Divine Art (330 GSM German Black Core) is a new and special stock, and I will be using the same for the current as well as any further projects. Keeping their printing prowess aside, the folks I'm dealing with, are true professionals with heart in the right place. Not sure if you remember, I faced issues with foil & gilding during the first print run that resulted into discarding almost all sheets. They took the hit on themselves, & made arrangements for getting the gilding done in a specialised lab of another vendor. This particular vendor is a gilding specialist (only does gilding and nothing else I suppose) and even works on very high profile antiques restoration not just on gilding decks or books. So, in all, this collaboration is working. In a future project, I hope to show gilding work similar to as done by Uusi and even a new finish.

[guru]

All - I've just posted about the giveaway contest here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9892" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mods - I was not sure about the correct forum, so please feel free to bump the thread to its correct place.

Let me know for any question.

Regards,
Sunish

[MagikFingerz]

All - I've just posted about the giveaway contest here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9892" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mods - I was not sure about the correct forum, so please feel free to bump the thread to its correct place.

Let me know for any question.

Regards,
Sunish

Moved it to our lovely new General Playing Cards Discussion section

[guru]

All - I've just posted about the giveaway contest here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9892" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Mods - I was not sure about the correct forum, so please feel free to bump the thread to its correct place.

Let me know for any question.

Regards,
Sunish

Moved it to our lovely new General Playing Cards Discussion section

Thanks MagikFingerz.

I'm not sure if the update about the Giveaway Contest has gone well with the backers. Saw 3 cancellations after the update, so it seems to be a downward spiral. Correlation does not imply causation, and there can be host of other factors or reasons too.

[guru]

All,

So, we got a winner for one of the surprise rewards. Details in the contest thread.

I've a question & looking for advise and/or suggestions.

I don't see much response coming for the giveaway. Should I pivot to a much simpler giveaway rather than asking interested folks to complete the required activity? A simpler giveaway can be asking to register interest by responding to the event's invite on facebook (as an example) with no other additional steps required for being eligible for the final giveaway prize.

Regards,
Sunish

[MagikFingerz]

I have decided to make this one of the few decks I back nowadays (I'm like Pierre, only without the excessive drinking).

Partly because this is a great looking deck (duh), which I also thought the original was. Sunish was, however, new on the scene, so at the time I decided to sit by and see how things went. Which brings me to my next point.

The other reason is because Sunish has shown himself to be a real class act. The way he handled his first campaign, his translucency in details about his works, and even his contribution and presence on this forum. Not many deck producers take the time to really be a part of this community, which is certainly understandable, but it's a great privilege when they do. It takes me back to the early days of Kickstarter when Lance Miller made a similar impression.

So I'm in for one White Gold and one original. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is a pretty good way to make me a backer.

[sinjin7]

Sunish has shown himself to be a real class act. The way he handled his first campaign, his translucency in details about his works, and even his contribution and presence on this forum. Not many deck producers take the time to really be a part of this community, which is certainly understandable, but it's a great privilege when they do. It takes me back to the early days of Kickstarter when Lance Miller made a similar impression.

I have to agree. I always show more partiality to designers who contribute to our forum, not just promoting their own deck, but getting involved in discussions about other decks and topics. I have a little less esteem for designers who only come to promote their own deck but are otherwise absent. We all know who those are. A quick look at their profiles will show that almost 100% of their posts are just devoted to whichever deck they've released, and if they don't currently have a deck being released, they're never here.

[guru]

Tuckbox pics....

Check latest KS update for more: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/su ... ts/1881448" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rousselle]

This project appears to have stalled. I wonder why. Huh. I'd have expected this one to do better than the first one.

[shaitani]

I'm not sure either. I missed out on the first one, so I'm a new addition. Maybe those who picked up the first one were more likely not to come back thinking they're getting more of the same?

[JuFiN]

I got the first deck via giveaway, and its fantastic so I dont know why people wouldnt want more of the same! I am for sure backing this one.

[RichK]

I got the first deck via giveaway, and its fantastic so I dont know why people wouldnt want more of the same! I am for sure backing this one.

I'm baffled by it as well. I can see where some people might say $22 a deck but it's a gold foiled tuck, gold foil back, and hand gilded edges. I got the 2 deck EB for ~$33 US so that's $16 a deck for all that gold! It's a steal in my opinion.

[Stepchild]

VXD succeeding while this flounders is a mystery to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Oscar53955]

I got the first deck via giveaway, and its fantastic so I dont know why people wouldnt want more of the same! I am for sure backing this one.

I'm baffled by it as well. I can see where some people might say $22 a deck but it's a gold foiled tuck, gold foil back, and hand gilded edges. I got the 2 deck EB for ~$33 US so that's $16 a deck for all that gold! It's a steal in my opinion.

Yes, Exactly. Eva is more expensive, but it has no gilding or foil. I guess people prefer naked ladies than hindu mythology. Well it's actually because Thirdway Industries, like Jody Eklund, Lotrek, and other creators, have a following. I prefer this over Eva and even over the Iron Horse deck.

[sms69x]

Something must be done... This needs to get momentum..
I've been sharing it on FB but unfortunately don't have too many friends that share my passion!

[VXD]

Stepchild

It is sad for me to see that a playing card collector / enthusiast has such a negative opinion of a new development in the market, that basically took up every spare hour of my life for 8 years and totally broke me financially. I really thought all people, whether the first designs are to your taste or not, would support and be positive about a new technology and advancement in the market....clearly that's not the case.

[VXD]

Guru

I'm sorry your project didn't fund this time...it's never nice to see. Hope you bounce back. Good luck.

[Stepchild]

Stepchild

It is sad for me to see that a playing card collector / enthusiast has such a negative opinion of a new development in the market, that basically took up every spare hour of my life for 8 years and totally broke me financially. I really thought all people, whether the first designs are to your taste or not, would support and be positive about a new technology and advancement in the market....clearly that's not the case.

Based upon appearances and claims, the new technology does not particularly need the support of kickstarter or me specifically. I simply found the deck design not at all to my taste and the pricing too high.

"All people" are never going to universally support any project, however its creator may regard it. I chose to express my surprise that one deck funds over another, a relatively common and mild type of expression on these boards, and hardly "such a negative opinion."