The Past - Present - Future

[Loop Cuts]

Hey guys, lets have a sit down and talk about the truth behind me and my past. CBJ is right about one thing, back then I was very messed up and unethical. I'm sure those were never his words exactly but you get the gist. So here it goes....

Two years ago I was highly ambitious about the industry. I spoke to great minds like Jason Brumbalow, Lace Miller, Dave Buck and so on. Shared some of my concepts and some were loved while others were not. I was so eager to make my mark that I put on my running shoes before reading the guide and my ethics were nonexistent. It's not because I wanted to take what I could how I could... It's because I was usually in over my head and when I got into hot water, I tried to fix a problem by creating a new one. I started with a YouTube channel called magicians work shop. It was small but I was reviewing cards in a different way. This gained the attention of a few people and BMPoker was one of them. He sponsored me and sent me tons of decks to review. I suddenly had so much more to do than I had expect and was really happy. Lance was helping me with branding at the time and also teaching me on how to build on something great. With my ambition though, I was it evolving in my head and had to take the steps to see it do so. I then created Modern Manipulator and that was meant to be the next step for me. I had great things going for me and I had finally established a sponsored relationship with Ellusionist, which is very hard to do! I was sent the Red artifice decks way before they were released and had an exclusive interview about them. As I set up the launch of MM I was ready to sell our very first e-mag. After launch though I realized that I was doing something wrong... We sold none of the mags and I was lost... Confused and irritated. I closed MM thinking I could do better, figure it out and get back to the basics.

So as you see, I was already making HUGE mistakes. I had broken a sponsorship with BMPoker, closed two of my projects, creating doubt in the community that anything I was going to do would last. I didn't even see what I was doing was doing more harm than good. Lets speed up the clock a little to a time frame more recognized by many of you....

Conjuring Creations... My come back Idea. A bamboo card clip that was actually pretty cool. My ability to create and design a project had evolved. My concept for marketing had improved and I was getting a better grip on how to manage my own thoughts. I managed to raise enough money to bring about the first prototypes of the ECO CARD CLIP. This was beyond exciting and I charged a very low price to get people interested. HUGE MISTAKE. I didn't realize I was undercutting my self and would damage the entire production and delivery process because of it. I was short on money due to not having enough left over for shipping. I was in full panic mode and I could see the success down the road waiting on me. I sent what I could out then quickly pulled in Encarded as my first client. I figured with profits from that venture that I could make the money, ship everything out and all would be right with the world.

(SEE IT?<--- That is my big unethical mistake... that I repeated over and over because I panicked, because I didn't take the time to research and perfect things.)

Next was 4PM Designs. I pulled them in as my second client before the Encarded clips were even done. The wood shop was overwhelmed by the demand and was kinda lost in a mix of Happy and worried. I know now that I should have perfected the production process, asked the shop the right questions...like... "what would happen if damaged clips came in? What time frame would an order of this size take to complete.?" I didn't even quote any of the clients a time frame. Looking back... I'm ashamed of it all. I had created a perfectly amazing product that was doomed from day one because I was the one that created it.

Over time the timelines were becoming more and more unclear as to when they would be finished and each client was stressed as well. Communication broke down because at one point 4PM Designs was ready to cancel the order but I explained that a refund wasn't possible due to all of the money being invested in production. I told the shop that they were ready to pull out. In confusion, Encarded was told by the shop that I was considering canceling an order and Encarded was ready to flip out... Why in the world was that going on? And it was a break down and mix up between to clients information.

Over the next month or two, things were getting worse for me. I spent my end of the profit, and was also selling some decks to make up for the financial crisis in the making.

PIVOTAL MOMENT: I sold a huge lot of decks to a buyer and also sold a single deck to another. I manged to ship them to the wrong addresses. I panicked in a huge way. I contacted the person that was receiving the huge order to inform them of the mistake and told them I would pay for the return shipping if they could please help me fix it. After many messages back and forth, they claim it never arrived. The person that spent hundreds of dollars on there order was furious. I was now on the line for lips, for the sold decks and I was in a lot of trouble. This is when people started talking EVERYWHERE. I went into hiding..............

......

......

All was silent and I created the FB Alias Lee Zero....WHY? Mainly because I couldn't stop... My brain is a bunch of gears in motion, always building, wanting to create. I should have been taking time to reflect to see how things had become such a mess. But rather I decided to help Vanda get established and help them get there KS deck funded. David decided to keep it secret because he needed the help and he likely didn't understand the depth of my troubles. I helped him get 100% and to CBJ's dismay worked with him as well. During the talks with CBJ I asked him about my self... YEAH, very messed up but I did it because I wanted to know how bad it was for me. I knew the community was very angry with me and I had to know.




Looking back... yeah things were great and I ruined it because of my inexperience and my ambition. I should have taken the time to research, to learn from my mistakes before making new ones. I should have stopped and fixed something vs creating another issue to fix one. I have had the incredible privilege of understanding from people like Lance Miller, Paul Carpenter, and others that prefer not to be mentioned. I NOT ONCE wanted to cause problems or hurt people. I simply would not slow down and focus and listen. I'm still paying the price for it today. I take full responsibility of my actions and bear the burden almost daily. I try to reach out to anyone that comes forwards and offer a solution. I know I cannot stop growing and give up.


FILM FEST QUESTION

Most of the prizes were never sent to me. Only seasons prizes & D&D prizes were. I've spoken to Alex Chin regarding it and he told me that I have to learn from my mistakes and he was hard on me about it. As he should be. D&D prizes were not returned. I never had the money to do so. I don't have a happy ending for a lot of what has happened and I regret it.


WHAT HAS CHANGED?

Well the first step to fixing a problem is always admitting you have one. So here it goes. I'm bad with money, I'm even worse with follow through. I'm bad with people and sometime let my anger speak for me.

I have taken more time that you know to reflect to see the damage I've caused. I now have my partner Katrina White to manage accounts to be sure I'm not tempted with reckless impulses. It allows me to focus on the bigger picture. I also take time now to develop a concept. I let it sit and then come back to it. I know to many of you the Playing Card Awards seems rushed, but I've been planning it for almost a year now.

LOOP CUTS has been selling again recently and we have shipped 100% of our sold products and have kept a clean track record. Things are not the same as they once were.

The Playing Card Awards are in play and it's doing very very well. On day 1 we had 125 nominations and more are coming in. The trophys are being made by a sponsor and will be shipped out by them. Any prizes are being provided by a sponsor and will be shipped out by them as well. The event is 100% on the up and up. I know when my name comes up that many bad things follow but give it a chance, please.




Let me close by saying this. I'm am truly sorry 100% for all the past mistakes. I'm not interested in hiding the truth. I beg each and everyone of you to please, please give me the chance to do what I love. Let me move on and let me grow. I'm now reading "The Purple Cow". It's a marketing book... I want to do the time to research, I want to do right by all of you but I just need the opportunity.

CBJ... I'm sorry man. I know we are past apologies and you simply don't want anything to do with me and I will respect that. I admit to my wrong doing... please just let me be. Let me live my life.


Thank you all for your time.

[sinjin7]

Here are my issues with this:

1) Its cowardly that this thread is put into the General forum where there is minimal traffic in comparison to the Playing Card Forum and the New & Custom Decks sub-forum. The topics related to you are absolutely and specifically about playing cards and should be in the proper forum, NOT this General forum. To bury it here is a form of censorship in it of itself.

2) You do a wonderful job in detailing your mistakes. The problem is I already knew about all that. I didn't ask for a history lesson, I asked for specifics on how you made full restitution. To me, its not as important to know how you screwed up, but what you did about it. So let's get to it:

3) Did you return the un-reviewed decks back to BMPoker?

4) Have you refunded all the money to every backer and sponsors of your bamboo Eco Card Clips?

5) Did you refund the money for the buyer who bought that huge lot of decks that were allegedly mis-delivered?

6) Did you send back the prizes to Alex Chin and D$D from your failed Film Fest? Of the other prized that weren't sent to you, did you make sure those got returned as well?


Its been over 2 years since you made most of these mistakes, that's plenty of time for you to have made full, or at least partial restitution for your errors. Again, please be specific as to how much or how little of your past mistakes have been corrected. To plead mea culpa and to say you're sorry is cheap and doesn't cost you a dime, and I don't give a damn what you're currently reading. Its all about the money, so tell me if you've refunded everyone's money or property.

I know to many of you the Playing Card Awards seems rushed, but I've been planning it for almost a year now.

This sounds like you're much much more involved than merely doing marketing as Mike is claiming. The UC already has the Deck of the Year contest and we have been doing it for the past couple of years. Why do we need this poorly timed award? Of course this is being rushed, how else do you explain the ridiculous mid-year timing where half of the decks from 2013 and half of the decks from 2014 will be eligible? It doesn't make sense. These Cardy awards have nothing to do with UC, are repetitive, unnecessary, and will only serve to compete with, and potentially undermine, the UC Deck of the Year contest. I

I have more integrity than that to be bribed into participating in an irrelevant and unnecessary "award" with the promise of some prizes for my nominations and votes. I have no plans whatsoever to have anything to do with the Cardys unless you can specifically address the above mentioned concerns of mine and show me that you've paid everyone back.

Unlike CBJ, I would be willing to give you yet another chance, but you do not get that chance until you've shown you've made everything right. If you're truly remorseful about your past mistakes, then you will actually correct those mistakes and make things right with everyone. Otherwise all your talk is just lip service and empty apologies without any true remorse.

[Loop Cuts]

1) Its cowardly that this thread is put into the General forum where there is minimal traffic in comparison to the Playing Card Forum and the New & Custom Decks sub-forum. The topics related to you are absolutely and specifically about playing cards and should be in the proper forum, NOT this General forum. To bury it here is a form of censorship in it of itself.

ANSWER: It's not cowardly, it's trying to follow the forum rules. Say what you want about that. I don't care...





2) You do a wonderful job in detailing your mistakes. The problem is I already knew about all that. I didn't ask for a history lesson, I asked for specifics on how you made full restitution. To me, its not as important to know how you screwed up, but what you did about it. So let's get to it:


ANSWER: Fair Enough


3) Did you return the un-reviewed decks back to BMPoker?


ANSWER: No... That was almost 4-5 years ago and he never asked for it back. Not a valid or reasonable response but I don't even know what all he sent me at this point because it was so long ago.


4) Have you refunded all the money to every backer and sponsors of your bamboo Eco Card Clips?


ANSWER: To my knowledge but I honestly think there are some that I've not. I just have no idea who they are anymore. I don't have records of it and that is a part of my poor management back then. If I come across anyone then I will deal with that promptly.




5) Did you refund the money for the buyer who bought that huge lot of decks that were allegedly mis-delivered?


ANSWER: Yes




6) Did you send back the prizes to Alex Chin and D$D from your failed Film Fest? Of the other prized that weren't sent to you, did you make sure those got returned as well?


ANSWER: I answered this above. I didn't have the money to and I will gladly email the Bucks to see if they would like me to pay for the items. Alex... yes, I should talk with him. I'll reach out to him this week.

[CBJ]

For any new collectors who have no idea what's going on, I encourage you to please please please read all the content on this thread at PlayingCardForum:

http://www.playingcardforum.com/officia ... lee-zarro/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the Google Doc that it link to.


This content has been deleted from UC by management.


Also, the links to all the "Film Festival" threads can be found in this thread: http://www.playingcardforum.com/playing ... august/25/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


CBJ

[Loop Cuts]

I would also like to urge people to understand that if you read all of CBJ's links out of context... it tells a very different story.
Especially the Google Link.


Thanks!

[montecarlojoe]

But... your OP gives it context. And I can't say I helps much.

Allow Jay to make his point, you've made yours. People will make up their own minds.

[sinjin7]

I don't know what the hell is going on here anymore. The only way to address this issue is to have it out in the open for all to see so that all parties can have equal opportunity to defend themselves. If you don't want this topic contaminating other threads, then put it into one thread and contain it here in the proper forum. This topic is ALL ABOUT PLAYING CARDS, not about who makes the last post or about music preferences. Is this what we're doing at UC now with uncomfortable topics? To just sweep them under the rug in a relatively unused corner of the site? This thread should not be in the General forum. How else are we to openly debate this topic with full transparency so we can be satisfied and move on? I'm going to say it again, this is cowardly and a form of censorship all on its own.

@ Robert Butler: I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond to my concerns. To me, it seems like you still have some work to do. You need to locate and repay those who you wronged with the same fervor and energy you used to take their money in the first place. Why don't I rip you off now and then wait a couple of years so I can conveniently forget about you? Things just don't work that way.

You blame poor judgment, bad record keeping, and greed as the reasons why you haven't completed paying everyone back. You claim to still be bad with money, bad with following through, and bad with people to the degree where you have to have a partner to manage your accounts and protect our money from your reckless impulses. Do you not see why people would be still upset with you, be suspicious, and not trust you? More importantly, does Mike and a few of his mods not see this legitimate cause for concern? Why is CBJ being vilified and portrayed as a rabid dog foaming at the mouth when he is merely addressing what I feel are very legitimate concerns? (This last question is not directed at Robert, but Mike and a few of his mods).

And you still haven't answered my question about the Cardy Awards. It sounds like its your baby and your involvement is more extensive than just from a purely marketing point of view. And if its not, then why is Mike bringing a personal business venture to compete with, and potentially undermine, the UC Deck of the Year contest? Something just doesn't smell right.

Mistakes made over the course of years don't usually get rectified over a course of weeks. I'm not saying Robert Butler does not deserve a pathway to acceptance, but I'm not sure if you're ready to be put on that pathway just yet. Let me have a conversation with Alex Chin in a few weeks, for starters.

[CBJ]

also.. on the one hand RObert says he's been working on the awards for a year... and on the other he admits it's rushed...

How can you work on something for a year, and now it's rushed???


Also,

Mike first said that the unbanning of Robert and Victor had nothing to do with business...

Then 2 days later, he says that he's been working with Robert on these awards for a month!!!

And then he makes Robert the admin on his CL FB page.


And, the Victor unbanning was also a business move. Victor was on the attack, and with Mike about to launch a dozen different ventures.. bad press is not good. The same reason he deleted the archived threads, and the more recent ones


This whole situation stinks.

[montecarlojoe]

Sinjin - this is about playing cards only in its broadest sense. This about trust and censorship. It is certainly NOT about "New and Custom Decks". Besides which, as you know the thread linking to this one is a global announcement visible to ALL. So please drop that particular bone.

From what I understand Robert being made FB group admin was a an act of laziness rather than any kind of promotion or direct association with CL beyond advertising. He certainly isn't an admin of the group now.

[CBJ]

One more thing....


How can LoopCuts be a "certified Reseller" ????

He admits to ripping people off? Are there no standards for this badge?

[Loop Cuts]

One more thing....


How can LoopCuts be a "certified Reseller" ????

He admits to ripping people off? Are there no standards for this badge?

You see, it's things like this that upset me. Your twisting what I said and putting words in my mouth. Thus, Making me look like a complete criminal. I never said that. I admited to being in the wrong and not taking my time. I never ripped people off. That insinuates that it was intentional. You could watch your step when describing what I say or better yet, quote me.



QUICK EDIT: Loop Cuts has full filled EVERY SINGLE ORDER.

[CBJ]

sorry... let me rephrase



You admitted to taking money for products, and not delivering products.

You also admitted to receiving products in trust for a review/contest/promotion/festival you were running, and not sending any of the products out to anyone or returning the products to their owners.


To do this once, makes it a mistake... to do this MULTIPLE TIMES is intentional... and means you' were ripping people off.

[Loop Cuts]

sorry... let me rephrase



You admitted to taking money for products, and not delivering products.

You also admitted to receiving products in trust for a review/contest/promotion/festival you were running, and not sending any of the products out to anyone or returning the products to their owners.


To do this once, makes it a mistake... to do this MULTIPLE TIMES is intentional... and means you' were ripping people off.

And I no longer operate that way. I take precautions and have delivered on all orders for Loop Cuts. That is how... I changed!

[chach]

I'll say this, the whole situation smells worse than my cats' litter box after a can of tuna. Robert, you say that you don't have the money to send back sponsored prizes to those that provided them after two years? How much stuff did you get? Surely shipping doesn't cost that much unless we're talking a truck load that requires freight shipping. Two years man. That's 730 days (well minus some for Sundays and holidays) that you could've gone down to the post office, grabbed a FREE flat rate shipping box and sent everything back. I'm lazy but he'll even I'm not that lazy. But in all that time you've somehow managed to cock up more business ventures, find a gal, multiple business partners and start your company anew. Again, this doesn't smell right.

Now also, you say you've made restitutions but due to your bad record keeping you don't know who else you owe money to. Ok, giving you the benefit of the doubt here, shit happens. But to ask that people come forward if they're missing money from you? That's not the way to do it. Get off your ass and work. Make postings on every forum you can. A simple thread along the lines of, "Hi I'm Robert Butler, I headed XYZ Corp and might have remaining customers that made payment but never received product from ABC timeframe. I need your contact info to refund your money." Work at it, don't just say, well it's too hard I'll forget about it.

I came into the scene originally just as all this crap was going on 2 years ago and I vaguely remembered it. But to see it all come back now, I can just say this. I will not be putting money into anything that Robert Butler is affiliated with until I'm convinced that he's now on the up and up. Some of the stuff he's accused of is borderline fraud and frankly mate you should be counting your lucky stars that all you have is a bad reputation and not some prison time. He says he has a partner to manage his money. He also said he was another person.

And as sinjin pointed out, how can he have been working on the cardys for over a year yet only be involved in marketing as Mike has stated. Again, something don't smell right here and I feel like people are pissin on my boots and telling me it's raining. I got a good bullshit meter and right now it's pegged at 100%

That said, Mr. butler isn't the only one in the wrong here, CBJ is like a rabid dog with a bone here, though for good reason I admit, newbs need to be educated. Now that we have a few threads (which are in their right places) on the subject I hope it can all be hashed out and settled.

One last thing, Mr. Butler, if you do leave the discussion and "return to Facebook" that's just another way of saying you're taking your ball and going home. You have a responsibility here, and that's to stick up for yourself, provide us proof over the following days and weeks that you've changed. Saying you're sorry don't mean shit to me unless your actions follow suit. If y'all want my money and support you have to earn it. I don't like giving it away freely, especially to people with shady pasts. Two years is a long time, but in those two years it seems you've done just the absolute bare minimum to keep your head above water.

[Cbkimble]

Im going to make this short and sweet. You said,

"Well the first step to fixing a problem is always admitting you have one. So here it goes. I'm bad with money, I'm even worse with follow through. I'm bad with people and sometime let my anger speak for me."

I can't see how doing business with someone who admits this is anywhere near intelligent. Reformed or not. Sorry or not. now has a manager or not. To me it screams BAD BUSINESS!!! If you had used 'were' instead of 'am', i might have other feelings.

[Loop Cuts]

I am now squared up with Alex Chin and Seasons.


SIDE NOTE: I know that many of you have your own opinions and I respect them but I am speaking to those who I've effected, Directly. If they are happy then I'm happy. Most of the community has viewed and read from the sidelines and it will likely be impossible to please everyone. I'm on the up and up and I'm trying my best.


Lets clear up the Playing Card Awards for a moment while I'm here. I'm only marketing with Mike on Card Launcher. I'm the Co-owner and Director of the Playing Card Awards. Two different situations and Mike has observed me carefully guys. He wouldn't just jump into things with me unless I've shown him something. He is no moron guys.

I do agree that I should possibly post something about the Eco Card Clip on Aether to find those who have yet to get anything. That is a good idea that I had not thought of. Now... I just need to hear back from D&D

[Eoghann]

Stick around Robert. Running away from the fire is the last thing you wanna do. You'll get a TON of criticism that's for sure, but it's no small thing what you've done. You've already owned up to it, but now you need to make it right. And by the looks of it, you're trying. Jay, if there's anything you can do to help with that it would be amazing. The sooner Butler can sort this out, the faster we can put it behind us and move on to better things. Send out announcements on your Facebook for users to contact Butler to sort things out. Robert, use your social media outlets to get the word out. Kickstarter, Facebook, Twitter, your website, etc.

And keep your cool. You're a businessman now. People will say things to piss you off. When that happens, get up...spend some time with your family and come back and reply with a fresh head. Replying in anger will only come back and hurt only you.

Jay, I sympathize with your frustration. And I don't mean to vilify anything you're doing. I'm also not defending Butler in any way, shape or form. I have not been burned by his misdeeds so as an outsider looking I can suggest to put aside your differences and help work this out.

Butler, if it helps at all; this thread could be used as a list of successful cases you've helped close. To give testimony of your efforts in righting your wrongs.

[Loop Cuts]

Stick around Robert. Running away from the fire is the last thing you wanna do. You'll get a TON of criticism that's for sure, but it's no small thing what you've done. You've already owned up to it, but now you need to make it right. And by the looks of it, you're trying. Jay, if there's anything you can do to help with that it would be amazing. The sooner Butler can sort this out, the faster we can put it behind us and move on to better things. Send out announcements on your Facebook for users to contact Butler to sort things out. Robert, use your social media outlets to get the word out. Kickstarter, Facebook, Twitter, your website, etc.

And keep your cool. You're a businessman now. People will say things to piss you off. When that happens, get up...spend some time with your family and come back and reply with a fresh head. Replying in anger will only come back and hurt only you.

Jay, I sympathize with your frustration. And I don't mean to vilify anything you're doing. I'm also not defending Butler in any way, shape or form. I have not been burned by his misdeeds so as an outsider looking I can suggest to put aside your differences and help work this out.

Butler, if it helps at all; this thread could be used as a list of successful cases you've helped close. To give testimony of your efforts in righting your wrongs.

Thanks for the feedback. I know I've asked for what I get. I've been getting it for 2 years. It's not easy swallowing that much negative criticism and attacks. If anyone thinks I've had it easy, I urge you to rethink that a little. I have come miles with my temper and yeah, I'll try that technique to keep it that way. As for using all my social media outlets... I'll use some of them. Others should remain untainted. I will keep moving forward.

[Mike Ratledge]

You're doing fine, Robert. I didn't expect this to be painless...

Sinjin7, while I agree it needs better "coverage", putting it in Playing Card forum is just not as we have done or want to do. For the sake of fairness I will place a link to the thread there. The debate is here, General, where it should be. It has very little if anything to do with cards, it's ethics, reformation and facing the music.

[sinjin7]

It's not easy swallowing that much negative criticism and attacks. If anyone thinks I've had it easy, I urge you to rethink that a little.

Listen man, the last thing you need to be doing is playing the victim. No one's forgetting the reason for all the negative criticism and attacks is self-inflicted by your actions. You just come off as whiney instead of sympathetic. Having said that, it looks like you're making more of an effort to atone for your past mistakes, so I'll commend you for that, at least. Again, you still have a ways to go, but at least you've started.

@ Mike - I'm still not thrilled that this topic has been shuffled to the General discussion forum, just look at who's online browsing this particular forum at any given moment, usually its empty. But Volant did put notice of this thread in the Announcement section and you did post a thread directing attention here, so I guess it will have to suffice and I appreciate the efforts at least.

[Eoghann]

Most of us agree that the General section isn't the best board in terms of exposure. But we can't just lump everything into New and Custom just so it's seen by everyone. Kai got the announcement out, there's a thread linking here. For maximum exposure perhaps you and Jay could add the link to your signature for a while so it's visible in every thread you've posted in?

[Strag]

I would also like to urge people to understand that if you read all of CBJ's links out of context... it tells a very different story.
Especially the Google Link.


Thanks!

Your posts in this thread provide all the context needed. You are basically saying "I messed up time and time again, but THIS time I mean it, I'll be good, I promise!" but then you continually get defensive when all you should ever be doing is apologising and continuing to prove wrong by your actions.

There is absolutely nothing in what you have said or done that shows me you have changed. You expect people to contact YOU to fix things when YOU are the one who needs to be making every possible effort to fix the wrongs you have made.

[Cbkimble]

For the sake of fairness I will place a link to the thread there. The debate is here, General, where it should be. It has very little if anything to do with cards, it's ethics, reformation and facing the music.

I kinda disagree. I really hope this doesn't bite you in the rear Mike.

[TLZ1979]

personally just sounds like a lot of excuses from someone that scammed the cardists and collectors community not just once but a multitude of times.

The whole - i can't remember who they are, they will have to contact me is farcical, i read that 4 times and still can't believe you made that comment.

a very simple saying is fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me three times what wait you trusted him 3 times, after the first 2 times are you insane.

There is absolutely no justification to trust you, or back anything you are involved in.

Mike you say you are in this and bought United Cardists to make money, and i seriously wish you good luck with it, i love the work you are doing with CL, and working with the likes of Lotrek and Lorenzo. But working with this guy could damage a lot of what you are planning. I really do hope you know the risk you are taking.

[Sparkz]

I find myself being more of an observer now a days, and I visit the forum less and less......the forum seems to be turning into more of a "Club" than a forum. A lot of us have known, dealt with, talked to, etc... with Robert and Mike. We all have our own opinions based on those dealings and information we're privy too. But here's the deal.....

There is enough information out there to cast a doubt on all Butler’s comments and enough of a factual track record for each person to form their own opinion, same for Mike. Now it’s up to each individual to decide what they want to do, how strong their own beliefs are, whether to take the chance or walk away, but since we’re a culture/community of entitlement and fearing we might miss out on something, we tend to take that leap of faith regardless of the information we have in front of us and act shocked when it goes south.

I'm getting a lot of email and PM's asking my opinion of things lately, so I just wanted to say my piece.

[decibelhz]

as a new person to this hobby, thank you so much Jay, for calling this dude out for who he is. Seriously, I can't believe i just read that and now he comes here with a sob story expecting people to sweep everything under the rug? you earned your reputation and it seems you still haven't learned from it. You still sound disingenuous, lazy, and with an attitude to boot. Your whole, "I can't remember who I ripped off" spiel really irks me. I hope you used some of the money you stole on a good shrink cause what you did is on a completely different level of scumbag. Who the hell makes up an alias and then hits someone up to talk about yourself? That is not normal behavior.

It's a story that needs to be told and I'm glad that Jay got to say what needed to be said without it getting deleted/censored. I'm glad this was stuck in the announcements section cause I would have never seen it otherwise.

In any case it's probably time for Robert to stop talking and trying to defend/explain himsef, and start working. Honestly. In due time, once you've proven yourself, people will forgive (they won't forget though and that's something you'll probably carry around with you forever) and this can be filed away in the "What to do to piss people off and think you're crazy" section

[shadowkat]

I backed the Armatura Clip project on kickstarter that was a collaboration between Robert and Rick Davidson. This was a project that was started in September of 2013 and finally was fulfilled in March of 2014. The course of the project followed the same patterns that Robert has displayed before. Here are a few examples from the kickstarter updates:

Update #5 Sep 24 2013
UPDATE
1 comment Like
Hey Gang!

We are currently stuck in limbo right now due to a customs bill that we didn't foresee. While we are dealing with a delay, we should be on track for the November arrivals.

Thanks

Update #6 - For backers only Nov 12 2013
When are my clips going to arrive?
1 comment Like
Hey gang! I know everyone has been patient and incredibly supportive of Loop Cuts. The reason for the major delay in production is because we had a great concept with bad production costs. We never anticipated that we would have production issues and in the scheme of things, we have throw more away than we have retained. This of course threw our budget off and derailed our time line. The good news is that we are getting it all sorted out and plan to have clips in your hands by January. I know this date is way of the initial estimated delivery and we are very sorry and humbly ask for your forgiveness. We don't intend to leave anyone in the dark so don't hesitate to contact us with your questions or concerns. Sincerely, The Loop Cuts Team

Update #7 - For backers only Jan 16 2014
SHIPPING TIME!
4 comments Like 1 like
It's finally time to get some clips out the door! We have had such a long wait over the past few months but now the wait is over. I will begin shipping card clips this Saturday and will likely have all clips out the door by months end. As the clips are shipped, I will contact each backer individually and provide a tracking number to set your concerns at ease. I want to thank each and everyone one of you for your support during this entire process. I cannot tell you how much it means to me.

Thanks

Update #8 - For backers only Feb 12 2014
Shipping Update
4 comments Like
Hey guys, Things have once again stalled due to a series of unfortunate events. Most of these events are personal and should not effect the business side of this project but it has. Things will be back in motion very soon.

Sorry for the bad news.

Thanks

I thought it was important to post this because of how recent this project was. I received my clip from this project because Rick Davidson made it happen.

[CBJ]

So why is this guy a verified seller??? Mods?

[montecarlojoe]

Because he sells things through a non-crowd funding website... granted, only one set of practice cards and a couple of clips.

[sinjin7]

So why is this guy a verified seller??? Mods?

Only because he's a business partner with Mike. Even Montecarlojoe has to concede its only a minimal amount of actual products. I doubt anyone else that has such few playing cards products to sell would be designated as a Verified Seller....