Silver Arrow Playing Cards - Relaunch Early November

[jerichoholic]

I don't know about this. I don't see any reason to print 25,000 decks. I think most of us would gladly pay a few bucks more so I don't understand his rationale about keeping costs low. I also don't understand why on earth he won't let you buy a single deck or why you can't add on a pearl deck, why be forced to buy decks you don't want or need? Has he not learned from E's mistakes with the Madison decks?

There's been a lot of talk about the high costs per deck on Kickstarter, this one can only assume is Jackson trying to see if this is a better option. He's one of the few independent guys who can muster up enough pledges to hit that 50k goal so I'm glad he's trying it out. (And since I'm a user more than a collector I'm all for it.)

As for "Has he not learned from E's mistakes with the Madison decks" - well, considering how it has worked well for them I can't really see how that can be considered a mistake. Perhaps not ideal for the ones who only want a single deck, but they wouldn't still be doing it if their customers weren't buying it.

My only concern about this deck is the lack of red in the diamonds and hearts. That's one of the few things I prefer designers not mess around with, simply to keep the cards easier to identify.

Well to be fair I haven't seen Ellusionist doing it lately, possibly because quite a few people didn't like it. I will agree however with the pips. With a deck like this why not keep them standard colors?

[MagikFingerz]

I don't know about this. I don't see any reason to print 25,000 decks. I think most of us would gladly pay a few bucks more so I don't understand his rationale about keeping costs low. I also don't understand why on earth he won't let you buy a single deck or why you can't add on a pearl deck, why be forced to buy decks you don't want or need? Has he not learned from E's mistakes with the Madison decks?

It's an experiment, either it works out and this gets funded and everyone's happy or it doesn't work out and everyone moves on. The whole point is to sell A LOT of decks, and with the price point I see no reason for anyone to buy less than 2 anyway (we usually pay at least $10 for one). And the Pearl is there as an extra incentive to get people to buy bricks. It's a mere shade different from the regular ones, so anyone who doesn't get the brick won't really be missing out on anything. For people on the fence about buying a brick, it gives them that extra reason to go for it.

I think this is a very interesting concept, although I have my doubts that it will succeed at this point in time. Only time will tell.

[jerichoholic]

I find that international shipping is quite high myself, anyone else agree?

I understand the point is to sell a lot of decks but I don't believe Jackson can sell 25,000 decks on Kickstarter or elsewhere, it will take a long time for him to sell all of these.

[Marcus]

He only (using that word lightly) needs to get pledges for around 8.4k decks if my quick math isn't completely off. That's a tough goal but definitely doable for JR. The rest of the print run he can sell through his site with no real rush. (Giving us somewhat of a staple Kings Wild deck after all. )

[Sparkz]

I find that international shipping is quite high myself, anyone else agree?

I understand the point is to sell a lot of decks but I don't believe Jackson can sell 25,000 decks on Kickstarter or elsewhere, it will take a long time for him to sell all of these.

High compared to what Victor, I'm just asking......

In comparison to other projects AND the cost of the decks being much lower than usual, it seems the deck cost is helping absorb some of that. International shipping is a pain in the ass no matter what, there is no real way to avoid it. International buyers are in a tough spot, I agree.

[Marcus]

I don't have any exact numbers in my head right now, but I'd say that the international shipping is what it usually is. I believe the average shipping cost for a brick is around $30-35 for me, often times higher than that when it is KS projects.

[cosmicsecret]

I don't have any exact numbers in my head right now, but I'd say that the international shipping is what it usually is. I believe the average shipping cost for a brick is around $30-35 for me, often times higher than that when it is KS projects.

I used to pay after the USPS raised their international postage $27 for a priority flat rate envelope which can hold up to 16 decks well protected.

[Cbkimble]

Concern about no one deck option - it probably would cost only $1-2 less for one deck so yeah basically 2 for the price of 1.

Funding goal - the funding goal is quite high but if you look at JR's track record, he always does well over that. Even the army deck was over 60k and it was basically a deck only americans would be interested in.

The high print run - I like that he is printing so many to "save us money" but 25k is a lot of decks. Maybe a smaller run of 10k-12k would've been a better test project.

[MagikFingerz]

The high print run - I like that he is printing so many to "save us money" but 25k is a lot of decks. Maybe a smaller run of 10k-12k would've been a better test project.

Knowing Jackson he's probably crunched the numbers and decided this was the "best" amount to print (in theory, of course). If this doesn't go well he might try again with a different amount.

[Yashi]

Hard to tell the difference between the red and black. It's pretty cool to have the red pips in silver but at a low cost, I assume these cards would be used for playing and it will get pretty hard to tell red from black in a fast game.

[Cbkimble]

The high print run - I like that he is printing so many to "save us money" but 25k is a lot of decks. Maybe a smaller run of 10k-12k would've been a better test project.

Knowing Jackson he's probably crunched the numbers and decided this was the "best" amount to print (in theory, of course). If this doesn't go well he might try again with a different amount.

Yes, but he's also used to 100k plus campaigns and not this much competition. The market is flooded at the present moment. There is no way anyone can predict what the market will so right now.

That's just funny, the card market. Lol.

[rousselle]

Question for JR:

Any chance you'll consider putting some red into the red suits?

As it is, while the stylized pips are awesomely stylized, they are not awesomely usable as playing cards because they require extra time to process as "hearts" vs "diamond" vs "clubs" vs "spades." They are easier to tell what they are when compared against each other; but a single card isn't as instantly recognizable as in a less stylized deck. I like what you've done here, but adding a little bit of color will not only make the art pop, but will help with more quickly identifying the pips during card play.

And with such beautiful cards priced so reasonably, it would be a shame not to actually play with them.

BHong noted on the project comments page that the goal is to use silver to highlight the differences in suit. If the silver looks like the typical "silver metallic inks" that USPCC and LPCC have been printing with, the distinction will not be pronounced enough. If the silver printing is more like the metallic printing on the Tattlers, then... mayyyybe that would work in normal play. But I share Marcus's concern (stated earlier) that it still might not be enough of a difference for use in magic....

-----

I see a couple of others have beaten me to the punch, but I'll go ahead and post this, anyway.

[Sparkz]

This was Jackson's latest comment about the Red pip concern.......

There might be an option that I'm willing to look into...
What if I kept the "all silver" theme only in the Pearl Edition and then maybe introduced metallic red ink into the Slate Edition. There are some production things I would have to look into but I do like the idea of pushing both decks even further from each other, but no commitment yet.

You know Jackson is one to stick to his overall concept and design, but he also listens, now I don't know if he will make the change or not, but he does listen to what people are saying.

I understand the gripes about this project, but I have to be honest, I don't understand what people want, I really don't.

[Sher]

It's important to remember that there are many people with a lot of input and while it's easy to see this thread as one collective opinion, it's actually the opinions of several different individuals and therefore there are bound to be many clashing opinions within the thread and even with previously popular opinions stated in other threads. But in all honesty, I don't see any glaring issues here, and there are also a number of people who have rebutted some things in JR's favor.

There will always be people who will say something, voice concerns, etc., whether valid or not. That is to be expected. JR has gotten a lot of heat in the past, so some feel that people should really give the guy a break, but as much as any one wishes that, there will always be someone who will have something to say (and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it very well be a valid point/argument, but due to so many complaints in the past, the concern/complain kinda looses its effect, since others will be prone to react, "another complaint again... ")

I hope this funds. It's a nice deck for a really good price.

[nECr0MaNCeD]

It's important to remember that there are many people with a lot of input and while it's easy to see this thread as one collective opinion, it's actually the opinions of several different individuals and therefore there are bound to be many clashing opinions within the thread and even with previously popular opinions stated in other threads. But in all honesty, I don't see any glaring issues here, and there are also a number of people who have rebutted some things in JR's favor.

Agreed and well put Sher.

To add my voice to the din, I agree the pips are nearly unplayable, and at this price I will definitely be using them for play. As for the issue of having to buy a brick to get the Pearl edition, Jackson's reasons seem sound and ring true. I know this sucks for some. I know the feeling. I wanted a Ltd set of Independence and cursed the fact that to get a set I would have had to pledge more than I had to spend at the time. Not everyone in every campaign is going to be able to get what they want. It's the nature of our hobby/addition. In the end I applaud Jackson for listening to the collectors and finding a way to produce a great looking deck at an affordable price. I think in the end this will help keep that bubble we have all been talking about from popping... I hope.

Just my 2 cents... YMMV

[TGunitedcardists]

TL;DR: great cards, hope he follows through and goes red for the diamonds and hearts, his strategy is a tough one this campaign, people are going to complain regardless

I was going to pledge for a brick, once all the cards were shown, I'm only going for a few. I hope JR does add red for the diamonds and hearts. For a playable deck, especially with the artwork on this deck, that is what is needed.

The artwork and back design are fantastic, but the heart and diamond pip colors aren't.

I think it will be really difficult to make that $50,000 goal. The Army deck leveled out around $60,000, but in the first 12 hours it was around $30,000, wasn't it? This campaign is "only" at the $6500+ mark right now.

This isn't a standard campaign for him. It's an a experiment on the low cost, low price end. If it doesn't work, he might just go back to a "regular" campaign. The experiment was probably also to see how much Kardify's reach is, and right now, it seems like it's mostly collectors. Instead of letting Kardify tease it, JR could have did more on Facebook and his website, but he didn't. He could have even tried is 2nd KingsFunded project, but he didn't. I admire his experimentation, but I think he's tinkered a little too much.

This would have been an ideal project to do exactly the same thing Erik Mana did with the Sybil and the Reserves, making it a race for selling the limited edition vs. the standard edition or what Alex Chin did with the Seasons project. That would have been a quicker way to $50,000 in my opinion.

I was totally wrong with my Army prediction. I thought he'd get $150,000 pretty easily. Didn't happen. If this campaign stays the way it is, I don't think he'll make the $50,000 goal. If he changes the pips to red, I think it would make a big difference for keeping more people happy, but I still think it won't be enough to reach $50,000.

I really like the fact JR is trying to cover the low end more. The prices for this campaign are good. I think he'd make the most money if he just put a lower goal, and because they aren't limited, make his $25,000+ easily. Then recolor and start another Black Arrows and Red Arrows and Blue Arrows campaign in the future. That wouldn't take a lot of work, and it would be perfect every few months between this Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines projects.

I think the biggest project this year from JR will be the baseball decks.

And to totally take this post in another direction, if JR was just into it for the money, he could easily make his $100,000+ by continuing the Federal 52 series, part 3 and 4 and 5 and 6, but he hasn't. And he'd probably just get flak for being unoriginal or whatever. He really can't win on the forums.

[Yashi]

Maybe he could do a muted red. That way it's partly silver and partly red. Anything that makes the hearts and diamonds pop out more than the spades and clubs would be fine.

[TGunitedcardists]

Maybe he could do a muted red. That way it's partly silver and partly red. Anything that makes the hearts and diamonds pop out more than the spades and clubs would be fine.

I agree.

I also did a little Googling. Fire Brick red or Fire Engine red!

EDIT: Changed my mind. Carmine red!

[volantangel]

Maybe he could do a muted red. That way it's partly silver and partly red. Anything that makes the hearts and diamonds pop out more than the spades and clubs would be fine.

I agree.

I also did a little Googling. Fire Brick red or Fire Engine red!

EDIT: Changed my mind. Carmine red!

Just shades of red ? No shades of grey then ?

[volantangel]

Ok so heres my take on this project: Kudos to jackson for trying out a new strategy, flawed or not, it is still a good effort in reducing the cost.

I think its an impossible task raising $50k based on a single $6 deck (not counting the LE because you cant buy it out right). None of jackson's previous decks have raised 50k/deck at $12 a pop, so regardless of the pricing per deck it was never going to make it. Some might say this is just another experiment, others might say jackson is overvaluing himself. Im agree with both, mainly because the most jackson has printed of a single deck was (correct me if im wrong) just under 5k for one of the Fed 52s. Popping up his production numbers to 5 times of his most successful deck is unrealistic to say the least.

Im guessing JR did this after seeing DB sell out of his gatorbacks in under a day, but even then i dont think DB printed 25k, probably more towards to 10k, and JR probably doesnt have the reach of 10% of DB's fanbase.

Maybe a wiser choice here would be to print 10k decks and price them at $7-8 a pop, yes the production costs per deck would rise, but its only in the region of $0.50 cheaper per deck at most. But maybe jackson wouldnt earn enough out of this deck in that case.

All in all, a flaw strategy, but a good change in direction !

[Yashi]

Ok so heres my take on this project: Kudos to jackson for trying out a new strategy, flawed or not, it is still a good effort in reducing the cost.

I think its an impossible task raising $50k based on a single $6 deck (not counting the LE because you cant buy it out right). None of jackson's previous decks have raised 50k/deck at $12 a pop, so regardless of the pricing per deck it was never going to make it. Some might say this is just another experiment, others might say jackson is overvaluing himself. Im agree with both, mainly because the most jackson has printed of a single deck was (correct me if im wrong) just under 5k for one of the Fed 52s. Popping up his production numbers to 5 times of his most successful deck is unrealistic to say the least.

Im guessing JR did this after seeing DB sell out of his gatorbacks in under a day, but even then i dont think DB printed 25k, probably more towards to 10k, and JR probably doesnt have the reach of 10% of DB's fanbase.

Maybe a wiser choice here would be to print 10k decks and price them at $7-8 a pop, yes the production costs per deck would rise, but its only in the region of $0.50 cheaper per deck at most. But maybe jackson wouldnt earn enough out of this deck in that case.

All in all, a flaw strategy, but a good change in direction !

I think he did it because people were crying out for a cheap staple deck that still had some sort of a premium feel to it. I didn't get any of Jackson's Tally Hos but I don't think that one had as much bells and whistles as this one. Maybe he should have gotten this funded with the same platform as his Tally Hos. Wouldn't that make things even cheaper or at least even lower the deck costs?

[jerichoholic]

Maybe he should just cut out some of the bells and whistles, I mean do we really need it all in every single deck he releases? It almost devalues his other decks that he is doing the same thing for much less imo.

[Marcus]

How could that possibly devalue a completely different deck? They're separate entities. Is the Gold Arcane less valuable because the Red Artifice was sold for $6.99? That doesn't make any sense.

As for if we need it in every single deck - of course not. But if this is the price and size of print run Jackson decided upon, I'm positive he's considered all other options as well.

I think he did it because people were crying out for a cheap staple deck that still had some sort of a premium feel to it. I didn't get any of Jackson's Tally Hos but I don't think that one had as much bells and whistles as this one. Maybe he should have gotten this funded with the same platform as his Tally Hos. Wouldn't that make things even cheaper or at least even lower the deck costs?

I think he needs the larger user base that Kickstarter has. I believe Jackson can succeed in a campaign like this on KS, but I don't think his own fan base is strong enough to purchase that many decks on their own. Not everyone who's pledged on his previous decks are likely to keep tabs on him the way we do.

[Sparkz]

The 1st update has been posted and should make some people happy.

[Sparkz]

Maybe he should just cut out some of the bells and whistles, I mean do we really need it all in every single deck he releases? It almost devalues his other decks that he is doing the same thing for much less imo.

I'm with Marcus, what does THIS deck have to do with any other KW deck, I don't understand the logic behind your statement?

........once again, there is no Limited Edition in this project, there was a "Thank You" gesture that people decided to label the "Limited Edition" , but that being said, it looks like Jackson is trying to make people happy with his 1st update.

[Strag]

I don't have any exact numbers in my head right now, but I'd say that the international shipping is what it usually is. I believe the average shipping cost for a brick is around $30-35 for me, often times higher than that when it is KS projects.

Nope $28 is normal for a brick. Condering he's charging $32 plus whatever the US cost is (remember that's already built-in) once again International buyers are getting shafted. I'll pass.

[sms69x]

I don't have any exact numbers in my head right now, but I'd say that the international shipping is what it usually is. I believe the average shipping cost for a brick is around $30-35 for me, often times higher than that when it is KS projects.

Nope $28 is normal for a brick. Condering he's charging $32 plus whatever the US cost is (remember that's already built-in) once again International buyers are getting shafted. I'll pass.

As usual International buyers are ripped off on shipping, it seems to be a trend!! Will pass for sure...

[hikeeba]

EPCC. Pass.

[jerichoholic]

There could at the very least be a lower shipping rate for Canada as it does cost a bit less and many others have done that to be fair.

[Sher]

The project is currently at $11,900 with 18 days to go. There is a chance it will make it.

Here's the new update for anyone who is not a backer:

First off, thank you to everyone for your incredible support on the first day. I know it's only the first day but I wanted to go over a few design and production updates.

Everyone's comments have been very informative and useful. The two main concerns have been the following:

1. How can I get two Pearl Editions without having to buy 22 Slate Editions?

2. Can you add some red into the design and possibly alter the design of the diamond pip to help with readability.

When I originally structured this project I wanted to create a project in which backers could get the highest quality playing cards and tuck for an incredibly low price. In order to do that I had to step away from the usual 1 standard and 1 very expensive LTD deck both with high per deck production cost. I also had to drastically increase the number of decks produced just to lower the per deck production cost as well. This combination brings you guys the lowest possible price for the decks.

As for the Pearl Edition, it is no way a Limited Edition deck but simply a thank you and also incentive for everyone who purchases a brick.

Possible New Pledge Tier

To help create a solution for the people that would like to have 2 Pearl Editions I'm thinking about adding a new E1 Pledge Tier that is similar to the D1 that will include:

10x Slate Editions 2x Pearl Editions If this is something you guys support I will close out the current D1 Tier and create the new E1 tier that will include the 2x Pearl Editions. All the backers in the D1 tier will be automatically given the same reward as the E1 tier. I know some backers will have pledged and may not remember to change their tier upon reading this update. Unfortunately, I can't change the tier description once there is even a single backer in any tier so this is the best way for everyone.

Adding Red into the Slate Edition

As for introducing red into the design, this is something that has been an overwhelming request already. So in order to retain my original vision for the deck and also create a very usable Slate Edition I will be doing the following:

Replacing the metallic silver featured in the heart and diamond suites with a deep metallic red ink, ONLY in the Slate Edition. I will be keeping the metallic silver ink in place of the red suites ONLY in Pearl edition. I think this will be a great compromise and make both decks even more unique and different from each other.