UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

TGunitedcardists wrote:

Sher wrote:I don't have a problem with this sale. The cello and seals were off, so the originals that were bought at higher prices still retain their value. The decks in this sale were meant to be opened because what made them collectible (cello and numbered seal) were removed.

Would you have a problem if they were wrapped up and had the original seals?

As a consumer in an open market, I am already accustomed to prices fluctuating, so I'm not particularly bothered. I bought Jackson's branded black reserve note when they were going for $60 and the next week he had a sale and it dropped to $45 and then even $35 for a short period of time. My first reaction was, "Darn, I should have waited." but not, "I'm pissed he held a sale and made the prices lower!" I also paid $38 for each of my Federal 52 part 1 decks and Jackson lowered it to $25 at one point. I wasn't pissed or anything, though I did learn not to immediately buy decks once they are available post KS, which is why I passed on the Sherlock decks for a long time. I pledged only for the LE and Hounds deck on the KS because I was strapped for cash, but I was in no hurry to purchase the rest once they became available post KS.

I used to think that deck prices would go up as time went on (since they're collectible), but with KW decks (as with other decks), they are insanely high at first and then go down as the market stabilizes, just like anything else - clothes, shoes, electronics, etc. I have no problem with that, and I'm not saying Jackson holding a sale is wrong or anything. If I miss the KS (which almost always has the lowest prices), I wait for sales now, unless my desire for instant gratification outweighs my desire to save money by forgoing the initial high price.

EDIT: Though now that I think about it, I think I would be a little pissed if there was a cello and seal only because the price is insanely low... It's $5 per deck. I mean, going from $60 to $35 isn't so bad because $35 is still a high price, but imagine buying something for $50 when the value is lessened all the way to $5... Just a little pissed, though. I wouldn't boycott or anything. Lol. Just learn to wait longer.

One can never please everyone.

When you make a purchase, you always know that it can go one of two ways - either the value drops or it rises. That is how it always works, and it is up to each and everyone of us to decide how we want to do. Play it safe and buy it now with the risk of the price going down or there being a sale of some kind later on. Or take a gamble and wait for a possible sale or price drop in the future.

The Hive decks + international shipping + custom taxes cost me more than half of the brick they have (had?) for sale over at Touch of Modern. Would I rather have waited and paid less for more? Yes, in retrospect. But I decided that I wanted the decks enough to not risk missing out, so I paid the full price.

This goes for all things. I have bought things that were on sale for half the price or less later, and other times I've waited and missed out because the items sold out before any sales. Frustrating? Damn right. But those were my decisions and I'm not going to hold that against any retailer.

But the point is, if he continues to sell overstock at what almost seems cost, who in their right mind would buy it at his highly inflated prices. Am I angry about this, no. More like slightly aggravated at myself for not waiting but like Marcus said, I wanted it so I paid the price.

I don't think he'll have problems funding his crowdfunding campaigns because it's still the cheapest. In instances where the deck was cheaper than the cost in the campaigns, they were either seconds, opened, or without the seal. In other instances, the initial price was so high that lowering it down once or twice still gives him profit (an example being the branded black reserve note from $60 to $45 to $35 then back up to $45). Also, some people will be compelled to buy because they risk the deck running out before the price is lowered. I buy some decks at their initial high prices if I really like them and don't wanna risk waiting too long and they run out.

TGunitedcardists wrote:This thread is an example of what's wrong with this forum. Complaining about the bubble and prices are too high, and you won't $upport him. JR has a $uper $ale, with reasonable prices and really nice cards, and voila, complaints about how it's too low.

Well, sorry that I don't live up to your high standards.

I simply asked a question (note that this was AFTER I had already placed an order and supported him in that manner) and wanted to get opinons and have expressed my own as well. I guess we're all supposed to be robots and fall in line with what you think the forum should be.

Also note that I didn't complain that the price was too low, I questioned whether it would hurt the value of existing decks. Part of how I justify my collection to myself is thinking that I can sell off in the future if need be. The is the same for ANY type of collectible. Given that JR has clear intentions on maintaining the collectibility of his designs (or at least he had in the past) I was simply asking about that facet of collecting.

IMO it sets a precendent that is dangerous for his business. People will be more willing to wait out his campaigns if they feel like they may be able to pick up the decks MUCH cheaper later on.

It could be a combo. People may not necessarily quit backing his projects but simply only back at a minimum to ensure the project is funded but wait till later to buy extras. Its a double edged sword no matter how you look at it.

Cbkimble wrote:I agree. if jackson does this liquidation one more time, he'll have hell funding his projects in the future. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I for one would have to disagree with you....

Lets look at things logically, the sale lasted what, 12 hours before all the allotted 1/2 bricks & bricks sold out?? Then Jackson added a few more full bricks to the mix so the sale actually made it till Sunday? We're not exactly selling out to 'the masses' here... I'd be willing to bet that most of the members of this forum missed out on the sale ( those with post counts below 1000 anyway).

Now, if I saw original fed 52's on the checkout isle at Walmart then yes, I'd feel PO'd but we are a FAR cry from that!

decibelhz wrote:

TGunitedcardists wrote:This thread is an example of what's wrong with this forum. Complaining about the bubble and prices are too high, and you won't $upport him. JR has a $uper $ale, with reasonable prices and really nice cards, and voila, complaints about how it's too low.

I completely agree with you. Part of the reason I visit less frequently and just ignore post from certain people. My reaction to both the Halloween Sale and the ToM sale having already had everything already excluding the civil war premium deck was "Cool" Do I feel like I paid too much for the cards that I already have? Not at all.

I collect for the art and design. I'm never selling any of my cards so I could care less about value. Also the same reason why I don't buy decks by the brick. What the hell am i going to do with 12 of the same deck? I need that room for new decks that are coming down the line.

I really think some people don't read posts carefully enough and are quick to inject their preconceived prejudices into posts, and some other people are so intent on visiting less frequently and NOT reading posts that they don't have a clue as to what is actually being discussed.

Let's make this point clear: NO ONE is complaining about the lower prices or the Halloween sale where he unloaded overruns with the cello removed and marked as such with a sticker. What IS being questioned is Jackson's practice of quickly liquidating excess original stock to retailers that he should know will sell his products at far lower prices than what he sold to his loyal supporters just a few months ago. This is not a knock on Jackson, this is a concern for him and his supporters.

You need to get out of your own myopic world. Just because you don't buy bricks or care about the value of decks after you buy them doesn't mean the rest of the card collecting world is the same way with the same attitude. Much of the card collecting industry is based upon what the anticipated value of any given deck will be in the future. It is what it is, whether you agree with it or not. And Jackson feeds into that with his special limited edition decks that he prices even more stratospherically. MANY of Jackson's supporters buy his expensive decks in reliance on their expectation that these decks are as special and exclusive as Jackson prices them to be. Therefor (in my opinion) maybe Jackson should take better care to preserve the value of his product instead of undercutting himself and his supporters.

I don't have a problem with companies blowing out their excess inventory with sales and clearances, almost every retailer does it. I just wonder why Jackson is doing it so quickly, why is he so impatient? I mean, its only been a few months since the Hive and Independence decks came out, and he's already liquidating? I sincerely hope the reason is not because of something like a family member or loved one is hurt or sick and he needs quick cash to help them, but I also hope the reason isn't because of simple greed without concern for his brand equity or supporters.

I think how Jackson is selling his products raises legitimate questions and concerns, and I think we've had a pretty good discussion about it so far and I think its important to continue having critical discussions like these about the hobby we all love so much.

Well said sinjin.

JR doesn't care about collectors, especially those at UC. Non-issue for him.

Yeah, a lot of sarcasm and exaggerations there, but there is an element of truth to it. He's said many times that collectors are not the largest group of customers and with his new connections at USPCC and wider distribution he may be moving into a new market segment. Also, while usually the cost of obtaining new customers is usually much higher than retaining existing ones, trying to please everybody here may just not be worth his time, especially if he has found new methods to easily get new ones that are less demanding. He doesn't care about the aftermarket prices and while you can argue that collectors will stop buying if they think the decks will lose value apparently his customer demographics show it's more important to focus on new customers and treat decks more like a premium commodity than an art or collector piece.

Anyhow, I'm personally not as invested in this since I am not in it to make money and just see this as a way for me or others to jump in. Same as how any store has clearance of merchandise, sometimes you could have paid less, but paid more to get it earlier and be positive you get the opportunity.

That said, I TOTALLY understand your point and frustration at the change of direction. Sadly I don't think this will change as he's moved on from being a niche designer of decks for a small collecting community. He'll likely lose a number of long time customers who bought in bulk or for resale or value appreciation/retention, but apparently that doesn't matter from a business perspective and I personally have no problem with that decision.

sinjin7 - "I also hope the reason isn't because of simple greed without concern for his brand equity or supporters." I don't think it's that. Maybe it's because he is sick of looking at his old decks knowing he can never reprint them. I do know. I probably won't be hearing in the future about some lost storage shed that had a locker of Jackson's limited playing cards. Seems like every deck high or low is going to be in the market.

ecNate - "JR doesn't care about collectors, especially those at UC. Non-issue for him. " Yea he does. And he reads the posts, but why defend on something like that?

THUNDERDOME!!

sprouts1115 wrote: ecNate - "JR doesn't care about collectors, especially those at UC. Non-issue for him. " Yea he does. And he reads the posts, but why defend on something like that?

That was sarcasm, although there is an element of truth about it. JR is a businessman that just happens to be an artist and not an artist struggling to get by or who just wants to share his art with the world or has a goal to drive the value of his work after he's sold them off. That drives his decisions and I understand that and can't criticize it. While that plan may backfire on him eventually, as I think he is underestimating the value in the collectors, including those of you who do care about the long term aftermarket value, it's a perfectly fine business practice for a company. An artist sells a few pieces a year and even a good deck designer has only a few projects a year and sells a few thousand copies. JR has many more lines of business, revenue streams and volume. It's only natural that he behaves differently, but it will have repercussions and negatively impact future sales from some previous customers/collectors. I think he may be correct though that in the bigger picture that's the better business move, even if it's not the popular or noble one here.

The reason we're having this discussion is because playing cards are a commodity that is hard to define. In a way, decks are both works of art as well as mass-produced items with a measurable quality, which are two very different things. Different types of people seem to conceptualize them in different ways all along the spectrum between the two extremes. Maybe if we could agree on what they should, or at least eliminate what they shouldn't, be classified as then it's probably easier to find common ground and know what we should expect from artists/businessmen (and make appropriate requests/suggestions if they fail to meet those expectations). Perhaps someone with experience with the more pure collectables like baseball cards or the like can offer some alternate views as well.

Just my 2 cents.

So I got my brick today and I gotta say... I couldn't be more pleased! The Federal 52 brick box is so sleek. And among others, I got a Silver Certificate, Black Reserve Note and Holms LTD. deck. I don't understand the lack of cellophane but I'm not complaining- thank you Jack$on! (That $ was for how much $$ I saved)

@Vasta... I got an email letting me know I have two packages from KW.... Can't wait to get off work... I think I have a fever...

Well the reason I don't buy from the Kings Wild site anymore is because I spent $100 for two decks from his first Federal 52 series. After some time, he releases a brick with the complete series for about $200-$300 (can't exactly remember). I don't blame Jackson but I've learned to just wait until he puts his decks on sale.

Got my brick in today, very happy with the cards I got. Also, if anyone wants a sealed Ltd Edition Independece set, let me know. I will be selling one now.

Pics from the unboxing...

All packaged neat and securely, wrapped in brown paper and bubble wrap


As the saying goes, we're all adults til someone busts out the bubble wrap.


The brick box is a work of art in its own right. Hadn't gotten one before, they're really quite nice.


Well this looks promising...


Row one, Silver Cert, 2nd Moriarty & White Reserve Note


Row two, Black Branded Reserve Note, Holmes Edition & Ltd Holmes (now I can open one, yay!)


Row three and four were the same decks, Hound of Baskervilles, and a set of Crown & Continental


Overall, very pleased with this, got some decks that I only had one of before and can now open without remorse. Already opened the ltd edition Holmes one and boy is it purdy inside with all that shiny gold leaf.

BTW - If you take the Kings Wild sticker off the Independence decks the serial number is ___ / 3000. Pretty cool IMO.

Chach, I think everyone got pretty much the same brick, a great buy overall =D

volantangel wrote:Chach, I think everyone got pretty much the same brick, a great buy overall =D

Nope.

I got two bricks:

1 LTD Holmes
1 Baker St
1 Morirarty
6 Silver Cert
5 Hounds
5 Holmes
5 Crown

(and the box got dented by the post office)

Was really looking forward to at least one Black Branded Reserve Note (preferably two notes and two ltd, since I ordered in the first few minutes).
Kind of disappointed with the lot.

Bought 4-bricks:

8 Moriarty Edition V2
3 Holmes Edition
3 Holmes Baker Street
5 Homes Baker Street Ltd (one with a crushed corner)
3 Silver Cert
4 Silver Cert Bicycle
4 Continental
7 Hounds
6 Crown
2 Black Reserve Note Bicycle
3 Reserve Note Bicycle

I have never bought any of Jackon's decks, but since this wasn't Kickstarter and the price was right, I plunged in. I'm happy with the haul.

My experience was almost identical to hikeeba's. I ordered two bricks, I think maybe the counts of what I got were off by one here and one there, but pretty much the same distribution. Was likewise surprised at no black reserves, but I suppose you pays your money and you takes your chances. Can't argue that I got some good decks for the price, even if I didn't get quite the spread that others here got. Alas.

Haha my bad! It's just that my brick and necros brick were identical to chachs so I jumped to an incorrect conclusion at 3 out of 3

For the record, I also got the same as chach and ordered the second it came live. Glad to finally have more from JR as most of these didn't pull me in during the KS projects. I'm simply STOKED to have more Reserve Notes though as I want to use for game play, but they are my favorite all time deck so not sure I'll be able to do it.

chach wrote: Row one, Silver Cert, 2nd Moriarty & White Reserve Note
Row two, Black Branded Reserve Note, Holmes Edition & Ltd Holmes
Row three and four were the same decks, Hound of Baskervilles, and a set of Crown & Continental

Actually, I got a (branded) Black Reserve Note, and an LE Baker St. A couple of duplicates, seemed about right. Remember, these are playable decks, and you paid $5 each - plus shipping.

I received:
2 Hounds of Baskerville
2 Crown
2 Continental
1 Moriarty V2
1 Holmes edition
1 LE bakerstreet edition
1 Branded black reserve note
1 Unbranded sliver certificate
1 Branded reserve note.

If anyone is interested in one of the three I received two of, let me know.

Cbkimble wrote:I received:
2 Hounds of Baskerville
2 Crown
2 Continental
1 Moriarty V2
1 Holmes edition
1 LE bakerstreet edition
1 Branded black reserve note
1 Unbranded sliver certificate
1 Branded reserve note.

If anyone is interested in one of the three I received two of, let me know.

Awfully uniform, I got one deck different. Same three dupes. Love Hounds deck, anyway. One to play.

Mike Ratledge wrote:

Cbkimble wrote:I received:
2 Hounds of Baskerville
2 Crown
2 Continental
1 Moriarty V2
1 Holmes edition
1 LE bakerstreet edition
1 Branded black reserve note
1 Unbranded sliver certificate
1 Branded reserve note.

If anyone is interested in one of the three I received two of, let me know.

Awfully uniform, I got one deck different. Same three dupes. Love Hounds deck, anyway. One to play.

well, I'm glad I got a variety. saw that some received 4 of 2 decks and then the last 4 were different. that would've sucked. I'm pretty satisfied. I've pretty much got enough that I can play with these and keep all my sealed decks sealed.

Cbkimble wrote:well, I'm glad I got a variety. saw that some received 4 of 2 decks and then the last 4 were different. that would've sucked.

Lol, here's mine:

1x Unbranded Reserve Note
2x Sherlock Bakerstreet
4x Bicycle Silver Cert
5x Sherlock HoB

The only one I didn't have was the unbranded Reserve note, so I was happy with that. I figured I'd get duplicates, but I did think a mixed brick would be more, well, mixed. Still a good price though and I can play or give the doubles away.

charlie

charlie81dbz wrote: The only one I didn't have was the unbranded Reserve note, so I was happy with that. I figured I'd get duplicates, but I did think a mixed brick would be more, well, mixed. Still a good price though and I can play or give the doubles away.

charlie

luck of the draw I guess. Can't really complain due to the price but it wasn't really a variety.

Our 4 bricks results :
Yes the TBC stickers were included, weird heh ?

anywya we are very happy about the decks we got, it lacks an unbranded black reserve note deck but it would have been too good to be true