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Hi... Are you still selling Blue Damask?

Bump! Looking for Redemption Vol. I Gold/Silver (black tuck)

What are offering for the redemption stories?

Hi,

Just a heads up we are selling the Redemption Stories decks on our site (www.jacksandjokers.co.uk).

Only selling the Gold/Silver deck as a pair however as both deck are numbered #15

Severain wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:43 am What are offering for the redemption stories?

It's always hard to make offers, but I'm imagining $150 shipped might be appropriate? Please let me know as I'm open to working with you as well. The way I would justify it is that there are two gold/gold on eBay that sit there at $120. One could conclude their value is much less than this. Likely in the $80 range. With that in mind, I would conclude the gold/silver to be around $150. Again though, I am open to negotiation and hearing you out.

JacksandJokers wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:23 pm Hi,

Just a heads up we are selling the Redemption Stories decks on our site (www.jacksandjokers.co.uk).

Only selling the Gold/Silver deck as a pair however as both deck are numbered #15

Amazing numbering! I'll always be envious of the early Patreons who are blessed with those numbers. I understand why you would want to keep the set together, but I already have two gold/gold and it would be hard for me to justify buying the set at that price. I'd certainly have to think about it. Thanks for letting me know, Simon!

Seeing your discussion reminded me of a picture Simon posted years ago on his haul of Grotesk decks from Kickstarter that gobsmacked me, so I wanted to repost it for those that missed it, or have forgotten about it. I missed a few of these decks and picked them up from Simon, and yes, those low numbers are sweet.

Ah, I remember that package well.

Yes, I think all the Gold/Silver/Inferno Grotesk decks were numbered between 10-20.

That's one of the highlights of being a Lotrek Patreon, when you do get the decks, they all come at once.

Wish I still had all those decks now

Routine bump! If you have or know someone who has the Grotesk Test Prints, please send them my way <3

Outstanding List:

• Grotesque Signature Edition (Elite Platinum)
• Grotesque Signature Edition (Elite Gold)
• Venexiana Gold United Cardists Premier Elite
• Grotesk Macabre Inferno Test Print
• Grotesk Macabre Black Mass Silver Edition Test Print
• Grotesk Macabre Black Mass Gold Edition Test Print
• Venexiana Dark Masked Edition Artist Proof

So Adonael posted his ideas of current Lotrek market pricing on Reddit in an image format attached below. I replied to him and felt it was an opportunity for me to chime in with my inputs. I'm posting it here to perhaps spark discussion and give some collectors an idea of what some of these decks have been going for. Also for posterity's sake.

Informed buying/selling is something I strongly believe in because I was definitely victim to the crazy eBay prices of things when I first got into the hobby. This is all speculation at the end of the day, so always take them with a grain of salt. Private sales, outliers, etc. will always exist. My response to him:
"Oh boy do I have a lot to offer a thread like this. Keep in mind that these are my personal experiences/estimates as well.

Bicycle Butterfly is definitely less than $70. I'd say a fair purchase price would be around $40.
Recent Bicycle Venexiana Set went for $120 which is a ridiculously good price, although one of the decks was dinged. I paid $220 for a set last year and have seen an outlier at $300. Recent one went for $157 so $250-300 isn't an unreasonable expectation.
Grotesque Signature Set = $750-850
Venexiana Dark Signature Set = $800-1000. If it weren't for eBay fees, my cost would've been $900
You've listed some good prices for the ICONS demo and trial. Total listed is $265. I could see price being up to $400 but not more.
ICONS Imperial Reverse. I know of three private sales in the last year for $1500, $1600, and most recently someone paid above market value at $1850 for one. EDIT: This deck has now hit the $2000 mark.
ICONS Sacred: I just sold one for $120. I had bought two for $75 on eBay mid-last year. Someone might be able to sell it for more but $170 seemed high for me for x/600.
ICONS Signature: My impression is this deck goes for about $450 and is difficult to find. I bought the unnumbered one with no wax seal on it for $220 on eBay, and I was surprised no one bought it. One of my favorites of the series.
ICONS Imperial: Two don't sell at $300 (one on eBay since forever, and one from a private seller). $250 seems closer to market value.
Grotesk Bronze Experimental: $750 was my buying price, $560 sounds great
Grotesk Signature: $330. Not a popular series so the signature doesn't usually go that high.
Liturgy Black Bronze Green is the rarest one. I've seen recent sales be around $300 but it can be found for less from an honest seller. Recently sold here on UC for $175 for example.
Liturgy Treasure - $500-600. Maybe more? Can't refute your valuation as it is an old/rare deck and his best Liturgy. Recent opened one went for sale for $450 and a sealed one for about 480€.
Blue Oath: I know sales of $600, $900, $1300 in the last year or so
Golden Oath Prototype: $300-450
Sanctus: $300-400. This one seems to fluctuate.
Ambassadors Signature: $180-200
Ambassadors Players: Probably more than $25ea but definitely not eBay listing prices.
Arabesque Error: Multiple have gone for $550 last year. With Arabesque silver recently going for 475GBP, I imagine Error will be valued much much higher.
Fable Test: Rarest of the fables, I'd say value is higher than $50 with the right buyer.
Oath GoB: $125-150
Oath GoG: Know of two sales for $300-325 last year. $400+ probably but there's one on eBay that sits at $499
Crypt: Value seems to have decreased a bit, which is a shame as it's probably one of his best/most intricate works imo. $250-350
Redemption 1 is definitely not $200. Gold Silver is rarer and you have it listed as $100. I'd say probably will increase in value over time but more like $80 for Gold/Gold and $135 for Gold/Silver, very conservative low estimates on my end."

Never seen one have so much OCD towards Lotrek decks
Been here for years and seen many of you come and go. Stephen was one of them. He had such a passion to for his favourite printer and grab some really rare pieces back in the day

double_left wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:41 pm Never seen one have so much OCD towards Lotrek decks
Been here for years and seen many of you come and go. Stephen was one of them. He had such a passion to for his favourite printer and grab some really rare pieces back in the day

I love Lotrek almost as much as Kevork, but unfortunately I don’t have a card budget that lives up to my adoration. I am grateful he shares his collection here so that I can live vicariously.

double_left wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:41 pm Never seen one have so much OCD towards Lotrek decks
Been here for years and seen many of you come and go. Stephen was one of them. He had such a passion to for his favourite printer and grab some really rare pieces back in the day

Ah yes, "TheCollector." I wish I had a chance to get to know Stephen. I've seen his old posts and he had quite the rare gems (uncut tucks, plates, silver silk prototype ). He was fortunate to be collecting at a time when a lot of those items were trading hands, which isn't to minimize how skilled he was in acquiring items too. I hope such items are not lost and will turn up again in the community.

A lot of my hunt for Lotrek's decks has been out of passion for what I believe to be some of the most beautifully foiled playing card decks to have ever existed from a technical standpoint. I never intended to acquire the collection of Lotrek decks I currently have as I had perceived many to be unobtainable, but as I started to acquire more of his decks, the desire to create a complete compendium of Lotrek's works started to become more and more within reach. It became more meaningful for me. I'm sure many in the collecting sphere know that itch to feel complete, but it's not just for the sake of completing it. It's a matter of what can I offer to the community through such a collection. I was contemplating an idea but hint: Lorenzo beat me to the idea by doing it for his works this year.

I've always had a passion for learning things and it's a huge part of why I love UC; the community and the knowledge the community brings. I find it fun to also share that knowledge and insight for others when and where I can and that was my primary intention with my previous reply.

CourtCurator wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:43 pm I love Lotrek almost as much as Kevork, but unfortunately I don’t have a card budget that lives up to my adoration. I am grateful he shares his collection here so that I can live vicariously.

Your kind words are much appreciated! Such decks need to be shared, for many never get the opportunity to see them.

How do you value this one?

You just had to torture kevork didn't you? ...add me to that list too

Strag wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:14 am How do you value this one?

You just love to torment me Strag, don't you?

With a deck like this, I'll share my thought process. This deck, along with the Grotesque Signature elites, warrants discussion. Community, please chime in!

A deck of this caliper is certainly not for the average collector. It was one bestowed very exclusively to the moderators of UC. Therefore, I would imagine if it were to exchange hands, a deck like this needs to go to a good home. A good home can likely be defined in many ways and can be subjective. When I say good home, I mean to someone who would truly appreciate the history and understand the sentimental value. It would also need to be kept away from the scalpers in the community who the community needs to protect itself from. For decks like this, the owner of the deck is a gatekeeper of sorts. The same could be said for a lot of really rare decks. I would hope that one would factor this in and not solely rely on the highest bidder (my bias enters here), but I imagine if someone had the intent to sell, they would want the most they could get out of it. It's their property and at the end of the day, they could do whatever they wanted with it and I would understand.

Regarding value, some questions come up:

• How much would someone pay just for a minor cosmetic difference with everything else being the same as its lesser rare counterparts? (different sticker seal, different paper material for band)
• How much could someone realistically ask when factoring in the nature of the differences?
• How much does price scale solely looking at print run given the former questions?
• I understand my motivations of completion and loving Lotrek's works through and through, but what other incentives would one have to purchase such a deck, if not for completion and historical/sentimental value?

A deck like Blue Oath and ICONS Imperial Reverse for example, are more common than a deck like this. They are completely different variations, however, and therefore offer something unique that someone might seek out and pay for. Would a different paper material or sticker translate in the same fashion? While the offerings for one deck may have risen (Reverse sale for example), does that translate to all other decks of the designer going up in price? I don't think that's the case as they can be independent of one another.

Overall, I'm a bit biased because I would really want these decks for the goal of archiving the most complete Lotrek collection to ever exist. I also need to be rational and judge that there is only so much a deck can be worth. The argument of "a deck is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it" certainly comes into play though. It does make me curious what one might pay, and I don't know if I could be the highest offer for something like this, especially since I've had to slow down my purchases. Seller would want most money possible, while buyer would want best deal possible. Finding that happy medium for a deck that cannot be compared to past sales proves challenging.

The only counterpart reference I have is a friend of mine who spent $1200 this past year on the Black Diamond Tally Ho Tactical Legacy x/10 in an aluminum case. Truly unique treasure. Sherman is making a custom carat case for him, which is awesome.
This takes me back to the comparison of blue oath and icons reverse. Such decks offer something different and therefore invite high prices. How much would one pay for a sticker or a different paper wrap? I think there was record here of one of these decks trading hands but I couldn't find it when I searched. I wonder if anyone has that reference although there was no public discussion of price if I recall correctly.

Thank you for sharing the awesome pics, Strag That paper looks so much better than the smooth version he chose for the remaining decks.

Strag was actually the one who enlightened me of the existence of the Grotesque Gold Signature Elite deck as it was not on P52, leading to one more deck needed for completion

Strag...

Oh, how I wish I'd been a moderator back then.

Saw your photos, and I'm just in awe. My proverbial hat is off to you.

kevork wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:14 pm Ambassadors Signature: $180-200
Ambassadors Players: Probably more than $25ea but definitely not eBay listing prices.

I haven't looked to see what the Players may have sold for on ebay, but something that Adonai may or may not be aware of -- and any serious collector of Lotrek *should* be aware of -- is that although the original plan was for the Ambassadors Players decks to be plentiful and available at a very affordable price, once the original set of sold decks were shipped out, the remaining decks went up in a fire at the LPCC warehouse, and they were destroyed.

As such, the original batch to be mailed out are the only ones out there in the wild -- only a small portion of the original print run of 1000 were ever shipped out -- and therefore will typically command a higher price than you might otherwise expect.

rousselle wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:28 pm

kevork wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:14 pm Ambassadors Signature: $180-200
Ambassadors Players: Probably more than $25ea but definitely not eBay listing prices.

I haven't looked to see what the Players may have sold for on ebay, but something that Adonai may or may not be aware of -- and any serious collector of Lotrek *should* be aware of -- is that although the original plan was for the Ambassadors Players decks to be plentiful and available at a very affordable price, once the original set of sold decks were shipped out, the remaining decks went up in a fire at the LPCC warehouse, and they were destroyed.

As such, the original batch to be mailed out are the only ones out there in the wild -- only a small portion of the original print run of 1000 were ever shipped out -- and therefore will typically command a higher price than you might otherwise expect.

The collectors red and black versions have been going for $50-70. I imagine the players to be slightly below that. That was one of my foolish early mistakes of paying $240 for a collectors edition when I first started

The fire is something that does slip my mind from time to time. I wish the original links to the news story were still available but here is the aftermath of the fire:

rousselle wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:28 pmI haven't looked to see what the Players may have sold for on ebay, but something that Adonai may or may not be aware of -- and any serious collector of Lotrek *should* be aware of -- is that although the original plan was for the Ambassadors Players decks to be plentiful and available at a very affordable price, once the original set of sold decks were shipped out, the remaining decks went up in a fire at the LPCC warehouse, and they were destroyed.

Just to clarify, all of the prices in my image are based solely on confirmed public sales data from the past 2 years on ebay and socal auctions, with some supplementary data from kevork because there was of course no data for some really rare ones and I have no clue about private sales. They're not influenced by any other factors than what they've actually sold for, in cases with large variations in sold price I went with the average.

kevork wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:16 pm For decks like this, the owner of the deck is a gatekeeper of sorts.

I most definitely agree with this statement. If I do decide to part with it, the buyer would be very carefully selected and I would use some of the proceeds to give back to this community in some way.

Strag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:28 am

kevork wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:16 pm For decks like this, the owner of the deck is a gatekeeper of sorts.

I most definitely agree with this statement. If I do decide to part with it, the buyer would be very carefully selected and I would use some of the proceeds to give back to this community in some way.

If you ever decide to give this deck a new home, I would very much appreciate being considered as a candidate.

Adonael wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:52 am

rousselle wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:28 pmI haven't looked to see what the Players may have sold for on ebay, but something that Adonai may or may not be aware of -- and any serious collector of Lotrek *should* be aware of -- is that although the original plan was for the Ambassadors Players decks to be plentiful and available at a very affordable price, once the original set of sold decks were shipped out, the remaining decks went up in a fire at the LPCC warehouse, and they were destroyed.

Just to clarify, all of the prices in my image are based solely on confirmed public sales data from the past 2 years on ebay and socal auctions, with some supplementary data from kevork because there was of course no data for some really rare ones and I have no clue about private sales. They're not influenced by any other factors than what they've actually sold for, in cases with large variations in sold price I went with the average.

I should clarify that I didn't mean to imply that Adonael (have I been misspelling your username all this time? I'm sorry!) was unaware of the facts about the Ambassadors Players; I just re-read what I wrote and realize it might have come off a little bit "well, actually...." I apologize for that.

Also, thanks for your explanation of where you got the numbers from.

I'm stealing the information that you and kevork have assembled and adding it to some of my own research for a video on the topic of Lotrek decks, which I intend to start filming soonishly.

Lemme know if, when I give you credit, you want me to use a name other than your user name.

Bwahahahahaaaa...

Strag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:28 am

kevork wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:16 pm For decks like this, the owner of the deck is a gatekeeper of sorts.

I most definitely agree with this statement. If I do decide to part with it, the buyer would be very carefully selected and I would use some of the proceeds to give back to this community in some way.

I like this idea of giving back to the community in some way. Motivates me to spend more if I needed to.

This actually reminds me: how do we go about making another UC deck? Was the Montenzi deck the last one? We are overdue for another! Someday I'd love to create a deck but I need to get better at drawing first

2013: UC
2014: Grotesque
2015: Delirium
2016: Nouveau
2017: Avant Garde
2018: De Novo
2019: Montenzi No. 7
2023-2024: Something epic(?)

I don't know the origins of the UC deck, but I know that the previous owner, Mike, was heavily involved in making it happen. As you can see from the list above, Mike had an exceptional ability to pull in some amazing artists (often early in their card designing careers) to make these decks. With the same of UC, that I think now falls onto Alex as this does involve some financial investment. I think the profits were also used to help keep the site running. Alex already invests considerable effort into the NPCCD decks to help fund the Portfolio52 site, so I am not sure if there is more bandwidth to do another fundraiser deck. My real time experience with UC decks goes back to Avant Garde. I backed it early in my collecting days and before I even knew about UC. I even managed to pick up both of the limited decks too.

If you want to create a deck, you could definitely go down the UC route and collaborate with a card designer. There are a lot of folks that have gone down that path.

Yeah I wouldn't expect Alex to manage a UC deck on top of P52 and NPCCD. I asked him if he could move P52 away from October so he isn't overwhelming himself and collectors too. Everyone seems to want to release in October but it makes sense that NPCCD can't move due to the actual October 17th date. Nice haul on those limited Avant Garde! I just took a trip down memory lane to familiarize myself with them more.

I'll explore this some more and maybe stumble upon a copy of Adobe Illustrator

Shifting back to Lotrek, I took a look at my Venexiana Dark Signature decks and it appears Lotrek used the similar paper stock for the band on those that he used for the UC Venexiana Gold variant. I could be wrong but it has that same textured look rather than smooth stock.

1. A fun fact is I could've been 1 of 10 people to own a Tally Ho Black Diamond Tactical deck but I got tired of waiting on the progress of it and gave up my pledge (refunded).

2. With those prices on the list of what's selling, I've sold stuff lower than what's shown! Now I'll use it as a reference with more I might have left.

3. I figured I'll show a card back of Venexiana Gold.

kevork wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:56 pm

Strag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:28 am

kevork wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:16 pm For decks like this, the owner of the deck is a gatekeeper of sorts.

I most definitely agree with this statement. If I do decide to part with it, the buyer would be very carefully selected and I would use some of the proceeds to give back to this community in some way.

I like this idea of giving back to the community in some way. Motivates me to spend more if I needed to.

This actually reminds me: how do we go about making another UC deck? Was the Montenzi deck the last one? We are overdue for another! Someday I'd love to create a deck but I need to get better at drawing first

2013: UC
2014: Grotesque
2015: Delirium
2016: Nouveau
2017: Avant Garde
2018: De Novo
2019: Montenzi No. 7
2023-2024: Something epic(?)

I'd be tempted to include Lorenzo's "The Odd Fellows" in the list, even though Alex switched it at the end to say "P52" instead of "UC," because it started life with Mike R. initiating the project with Lorenzo as a UC deck. In my head, that's how I file it, but I do realize there's something to be said for the fact that, once the project made it to Kickstarter, it had been rebranded.

The Nazo Nazo (or whatever it's called) deck that came afterward was an Alex-initiated project and, as such, is a P52 project through-and-through. Quite frankly, it never felt to me like a UC deck in the slightest, although there certainly was a lively discussion here about it during the development phase. YMMV.

The way these projects were handled in the past was that Mike R would essentially let the designer have free reign on what they did, the only stipulation was that United Cardists was mentioned somewhere on the tuck and in the deck (like, on the Ace of Spades) and that a certain percentage (10%, I think?) of the proceeds went to UC to help defray the cost of hosting, etc.

That's what I recall. My memory isn't what it used to be, though. I think.

Anyway, I'd love to get the ball rolling on another UC deck, but since the UC is in Alex's care, he would have to be involved in the conversation (even if he didn't end up being the one to manage it), and I haven't heard from him in an extremely long time.

Mike R's original goal was to ask Randy to do a "Ten Year Anniversary" deck in 2023, since Randy had done the very first one, but I seem to recall from a chat I had with Randy a little while ago that Randy's attention is on other projects at this point. I had talked with [another well-known deck designer] about the prospect of doing a deck, but that project never quite gelled.

I know who I would ask this time around if I can get Alex's attention long enough to get his blessing for such a project. I'll reach out to him again and see if I can get a response.

But Kevork, don't let me stop you from starting your own design project!

Just bc you see or have seen or know of someone that has sold something for a lot cheaper then it is today in todays market doesn’t mean things should be sold at a lesser value.

Displaying price & history of something from 2020 is a bit ridiculously for comparison. Just like comparing Reddit sales. If someone wants to sell a deck for hundreds or even thousands then so be it. your not the lead master cardy of Lotrék sales

Thank you to whoever added the remaining two Grotesk test prints into P52! Now all four are documented and my wish list looks a bit more accurate as a result.

What uncut tucks exist when it comes to Lotrek? It seems that those that may have owned these items aren't in the collecting sphere as much these days. The hunt continues.

I'm aware of the existence of the following:
• Grotesque Signature
• Liturgy Treasure
• Grotesk Macabre (1/25)
• Silk Red
• Silk Blue
• Fable
• Chronos Carmina
• Ambassadors Black (1/25)
• ICONS Anniversary (1/30)