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Pablo393 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:12 pm I missed out on the first release as we assumed there were going to be 5,000 printed and Jackson said not to worry, there will be plenty for everyone. I was kayaking on the Payette River in McCall, Idaho, so not too sorry about missing out, although I am anxious to see this deck that has caused so much discussion.

In running some numbers though, if Jackson has 400 subscribers to each of his 5 subscriptions, then that means yeah, 2,000 loyal followers each scooped one up. However, we all know that many of the subscribers are in multiple subscriptions. It is just fun to speculate:
1) how many actual subscribers there are in total
2) how many people bought multiples of the initial 2,000 release
3) how many loyal followers Jackson has that are not subscribed to any of his subscriptions
4) how fast will the next batch of 3,000 sell out
5) will people that bought some of the initial 2,000 be back for more

It's a warm Tuesday afternoon and I have nothing better to think about. Maybe I should go jump in the pool.

also consider that many people that want decks that are released like this as opposed to KS or other channels (lotrek decks are another example) are usually unable to get them because of tariffs, shipping costs, time zone differences, or in my case, work schedule. And other people buy whole bricks. rant over. Its a pet peeve of mine...reminds me of toilet paper hoarders.

Keep in mind though that that deck would not have been created in the first place without those Kickstarter backers of the first project.

I do agree that self production is great when possible (Theory 11), but even with KWP, many of the designs only happen by the subscription process and an expectation that those decks will be sold to those subscribers. Also, tariffs and shipping costs will still exist either way.

Excuse me while I go back to counting my toilet paper rolls!

Bradius wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:02 am Keep in mind though that that deck would not have been created in the first place without those Kickstarter backers of the first project.

I do agree that self production is great when possible (Theory 11), but even with KWP, many of the designs only happen by the subscription process and an expectation that those decks will be sold to those subscribers. Also, tariffs and shipping costs will still exist either way.

Excuse me while I go back to counting my toilet paper rolls!

First, I am a subscriber and was still unable to get one.

Im not disagreeing with the logic and Legal Tender series are literally the first decks I show people when they ask about card collecting. They are in my top 3 decks ever created. I like that in this case he is doing large runs, and staggering the releases so that people do get a chance to get one. Like I said, its just a pet peeve (and also the reason the only the only lotrek deck I own is Grotesque Macabre). Collecting doesn't do much good if only a few people have access and buy everything out. I dont mind paying $100 for a deck from a creator or a kickstarter tier, but not $100 from someone that got in, bought 3 bricks of them, and jacked the price up 10 fold. Let the deck create the demand, not availability. All that does is create an inflated market for things, and limits who can actually get one. Its why I am a fan of limiting how many decks a person can purchase from a limited series or initial release. After the initial release, say a week or two, then open it up.

Its at a point where there are some decks and creators I dont even buy from, go looking for anymore, and just gloss over in the forum threads. Its not worth the time and the frustration.

Bradius wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:02 amKeep in mind though that that deck would not have been created in the first place without those Kickstarter backers of the first project.

Wrong notion. Just because it was like that, doesn't mean it is the only possible way that this design would have come to life.

@macstrat +

It's hot out so I'm jumping in with me own thoughts in the form of some texty bits. TL:DR Last line sums it up.

Sure I'd like it if there was a slight limit on initial purchases. I think it would help some of us have access to a pair. But this, that we see and have seen here. (In general not singling this out, I mean over all KS, non-ks, pre-release, actual premier, whatever.) It's how capitalism works innit? Retailers and resellers, supply and demand. Free market all that, what. Aftermarket is part of that wheel. While I don't personally sell my decks, never have, maybe I should? I do trade with folks. Maybe make some new pals? I don't know.

Anyway, the deck IS what creates the demand. Nevermind how it's funded, where it's printed or who it's by. Think about it in real terms. The number of decks printed is always limited with exception of a very few, standard bikes, etc. Availability will always be an issue for a sought after deck. Time will increase the limits of availability and it will become more and more scarce. Even bikes and ho's are sought after from a certain era or print run. Yup, I'm a sucker too. I myself have and will buy 70's era Tally-Ho's, cause I'm not that smart!

If someone doesn't think 5,000 decks is a reasonable print run, I'll remind you that only a few years ago people were moaning about the minimum print runs of 2,500 decks was too many. There was massive excitement over 1,000 deck print runs and some wanted less than that. You can find these posts here on UC. Five years from now, what are people going to be griping about? It's going to be fun to see and impossible to predict. Will people be wanting 10,000 deck print runs? Will the hobby be wide spread enough to support 25,000 deck print runs for custom playing cards? Will be back to 1,000 or even less and the whole hobby moves a la carte? Impossible to predict what the future will bring. What new technology will be available. People are going broke at the moment so I suspect there will be a slight down tick. Pandemic, all that.

Personally, I am quite happy there is a thriving aftermarket for playing cards. It means the hobby is doing very well, it means demand continues to go up for more and new fantastic decks while new collectors seek out the decks produced before they even knew this wonderful world of custom playing cards existed. If the aftermarket starts to dry up and demand filters down to what it was pre-kickstarter era. Worry. But not yet. There's how many different flavors of cherries casino now? See, it's doing fine.

Now is a time of plenty, feast! We have never had so much as we do now. So much choice, so many editions to hunt if you miss one, so many new decks right around the corner. People jump on any opportunity to complain. Old timers complain that antique deck prices are falling and the demand for those decks doesn't seem to be so strong. Yet we see people their great grand childrens age collecting modern playing cards and investing in the same hobby they love. The hobby grows. The glass is more than half full, it's overflowing. I think it's a great time to be a playing card collector.

Fes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:10 pm Sure I'd like it if there was a slight limit on initial purchases. I think it would help some of us have access to a pair. But this, that we see and have seen here. (In general not singling this out, I mean over all KS, non-ks, pre-release, actual premier, whatever.) It's how capitalism works innit? Retailers and resellers, supply and demand. Free market all that, what. Aftermarket is part of that wheel. While I don't personally sell my decks, never have, maybe I should? I do trade with folks. Maybe make some new pals? I don't know.

Anyway, the deck IS what creates the demand. Nevermind how it's funded, where it's printed or who it's by. Think about it in real terms. The number of decks printed is always limited with exception of a very few, standard bikes, etc. Availability will always be an issue for a sought after deck. Time will increase the limits of availability and it will become more and more scarce. Even bikes and ho's are sought after from a certain era or print run. Yup, I'm a sucker too. I myself have and will buy 70's era Tally-Ho's, cause I'm not that smart!

But see that's the thing. It isn't whats happening. With what I'm referring to, age isn't a factor because they are just released. Retailers and resellers shouldn't be creating the demand. You have people that go in and buy multiple bricks, inflate the price (33x normal in the case of a recently posted ebay listing), and artificially create a demand for the product making a limited product even more limited. That's not supply and demand, that's price gouging. In many states its illegal. If an artist creates a limited deck and its good, customers will sweep them up because of that. That is supply and demand, and after they are sold out, that creates the higher prices. When people hoard them all and drip out what they have at inflated prices it does nothing good but line pockets that don't deserve it and disrespect the artist giving them a bad name also.

I will say that IDK what the actual sales are for many of the decks I'm referring to. I just know what I see as a customer.

Like I stated, there are a handful of artist I would love to own, but I can never be part of that initial buying process because there is no chance to actually get in line to buy them, so as far as I'm concerned their products just don't exist (not naming for a reason). Its one thing to hunt down a white whale because of limited edition or a rare deck, but when you have to hunt it down because of prices vs scarcity, that an entirely different issue that needs to be addressed. Even if creators limited sale to a brick, I would be fine with that.

Ill also add that this conversation in a thread about a money themed deck: the irony isn't lost on me

Interesting points - but why is this in this thread ? Jackson stated that he is planning a new (better) version of the Legal Tender already. So, there is absolutely no hurry or urge to get this deck .

Furthermore, if you're well connected, you'll be able to pick this deck up for slighty above retail (and the second batch isn't even sold - this will bring the price back to normal even more) It's not like every reseller is a scalper. Plus it's not like ever customer is a reseller. Some collectors buy the deck, see it in hand and then lose interest and will flip it to break-even.
There is always one or two fisherman laying out the bait because there're stupid people out there that pay inflated prices. No one has to buy it.

An examples that proves my point:
I bought a Bicycles Hesslers Enhanced lately (price skyrocketed to $250(!) sold on eBay and others have sold for ~$100) - I got mine for $25+shipping. And the seller was aware of the madness on eBay.
Prior to this I was reaching out to folks that I know have this deck. Their offers were $50+ shipping and another was offered at a discounted price if $90+. Did I pay these inflated prices? No.
It always comes down to patience. The supply for most decks is huge and the demand isn't there. Like macstrat said most supply is just artificially shortend by horders. The game is just to wait. Because I'll tell you a secret. Most resellers hate to sit on dead money. They want to sell, just out-patience them .

The game is just to wait.

Yep. Get them from my kids when I am gone...or when my soul (and everything else) is on sale to help fund their college in a couple of years.

Everything must go!

Restocked!

Legal Tender has not been restocked. It's the Federal 52 2nd Edition Jackson was talking about.

Actually, I think is is Fed52 v2 that is restocked.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:08 am Most resellers hate to sit on dead money. They want to sell, just out-patience them .

As I am a seller on ebay (and have sold to MANY of you on here) you are exactly right Harvonsgard. I sell in order to pay for collection. I do not sell to make a business out of it. I am a collector. That was the deal with my wife. To her the decks are just paper with no value, and hey you know the saying "happy wife..." so I can only build my collection by selling my collection. So If I have dead stock, yes the price will go down. Just save in your watchlists and take a chance.

So for some reason I went on the site to buy and when I clicked the add to card button, it just was unresponsive. I see now the above comments that is was for the v2. Oh well. There should be plenty of decks to go around.

wingedpotato wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:10 pm Actually, I think is is Fed52 v2 that is restocked.

Whoops, my bad.

vasta41 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:33 am

wingedpotato wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:10 pm Actually, I think is is Fed52 v2 that is restocked.

Whoops, my bad.

You're demoted.

Just as a heads up

I checked my time portal dilation news device, and I have an update from KWP on August 8th at 12:30 ET "Sorry folks, but we have sold out of our remaining stock. Due to the printers being really tired now, we will not be able to reprint anytime soon. However, we have this nice sticker you can print out and imagine that you own this deck. We will let you know of future editions..in the future."

Thanks for the heads up! For whatever reason I didn't get that email yet.

It's not an email. It's on the product page of Legal Tender.

I'm not in any rush to get any of the decks from the second shipment. These are the remaining 3000 decks from the initial print run. I'll wait for the second print run where Jackson makes improvements and scales back the holo foiling on the faces. Maybe even the handling can be improved by then. Like I said before, Gamblers did the Alloy deck with front and back holo foiling where handling wasn't so negatively affected, so I'm hoping something similar can be implemented for Legal Tender as well.

In that case it wouldn't be a second print run, it would be a new version.

Semantics. Version, edition, print run - interchangeable.

Choose your words wisely. We had to kick someone off this site for being anti-semantic.

rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:14 am Choose your words wisely. We had to kick someone off this site for being anti-semantic.

I almost spit out my coffee when I first read that- I thought it said anti-semitic and I was like, "WOW, what kind of drama did I miss!?"

rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:14 am Choose your words wisely. We had to kick someone off this site for being anti-semantic.

rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:14 am Choose your words wisely. We had to kick someone off this site for being anti-semantic.

sinjin7 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:32 pm I'm not in any rush to get any of the decks from the second shipment. These are the remaining 3000 decks from the initial print run. I'll wait for the second print run where Jackson makes improvements and scales back the holo foiling on the faces. Maybe even the handling can be improved by then. Like I said before, Gamblers did the Alloy deck with front and back holo foiling where handling wasn't so negatively affected, so I'm hoping something similar can be implemented for Legal Tender as well.

I agree.

Jackson has said that there will be an updated, better version after these 3000. I don't need every single version of every deck, so I'll happily wait for the improved design.

Am I the only one that kinda dislikes that Jackson is skribbling in the gilded decks?
A custom seal would be way, way nicer, imo.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:11 am Am I the only one that kinda dislikes that Jackson is skribbling in the gilded decks?
A custom seal would be way, way nicer, imo.

I suspect they are not going to print a separate tuck, so the signature is to differentiate the two. I think there will be a custom seal, if I understand what Jackson/Nick said over Instagram live. But $65 is a bit expensive...