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I'd say hate neither. If someone wants to pay $500 for a deck that gets restocked soon, go for it.

I wasn't in a big rush to get this deck, enough will be printed so that anyone who wants a deck will be able to get one. The thing I'm waiting on is word on how these handle. If they handle as bad (or worse due to the foiling) as the original, then its probably an easy pass for me. I'm sure they will be a ton of collectors who get their decks and will be like, "Oh my gawsh, these are sooooo pretty!" But I'm hoping there will be at least a few cardists or magicians who can post an objective review about how these actually handle.

alric wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:39 pm I wasn't in a big rush to get this deck, enough will be printed so that anyone who wants a deck will be able to get one. The thing I'm waiting on is word on how these handle. If they handle as bad (or worse due to the foiling) as the original, then its probably an easy pass for me. I'm sure they will be a ton of collectors who get their decks and will be like, "Oh my gawsh, these are sooooo pretty!" But I'm hoping there will be at least a few cardists or magicians who can post an objective review about how these actually handle.

Valid points, but, I must point out that people shell out big $$$$$ for Lotrek decks that don't specialize in handling. These look seemingly as beautiful as those.

I missed out on the 1st release, too. I'll have to be extra aware of the 2nd drop.

Just saw Card Guy’s review. Looks amazing! Can’t wait to get my hands on them. Have to wait for a while before they ship though!

Awesome review for an awesome deck. Tiny gripe regarding the deck, the promo shots gave the impression that the foil is used for highlights and not that much. Especially on the faces it is a bit much. Anyhow, still a dope deck nonetheless.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:05 pm Awesome review for an awesome deck. Tiny gripe regarding the deck, the promo shots gave the impression that the foil is used for highlights and not that much. Especially on the faces it is a bit much. Anyhow, still a dope deck nonetheless.

Yea. Would have been really cool if, like actual currency, there was only hologram on the specific "security" elements of the cards.

Still waiting on the 2nd release though.

scottbre wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:51 pmStill waiting on the 2nd release though.

Same here. I'll only get one though. With the downsides in handling and the (subjectively) not perfect featuring of the holofoil I won't get more.

The holofoil is definitely over the top. I saw it very much as Jackson asserting dominance over foil after the struggles with the original. lol. It is an impressive deck in hand even if the handling suffers.

mine are coming today, cant wait to check them out! I agree with the foil comments but still think its a very nice deck

Just got mine in today. This deck is T H I C K. The 2016 deck is 16-17 mm thick and had some wiggle room inside for the cards. The 2020 version is 20 mm thick with no wiggle room inside.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:05 pm Tiny gripe regarding the deck, the promo shots gave the impression that the foil is used for highlights and not that much. Especially on the faces it is a bit much. Anyhow, still a dope deck nonetheless.

Same tiny gripe here. And I can't believe I'm saying this but I wish the holofoil was used more sparingly on the faces. Still love the deck, though.

Great review by The Card Guy. As good as the review was, I found myself getting less and less enthused about the deck as it went on. First off, I'm not a fan of glossy tucks, they usually come off as cheaper looking and feeling than matte tucks. Also, the holographic foiling coverage is all over the tuck. Selective foiling on a matte stock would've been much better. This is the same issue for the cards themselves. It appears to be a cold-foiled holographic foil over the entire surface of both face and back. I was like Harvonsgard in expecting holographic foil highlights instead of all over. Selective foiling would've made the holographic effect pop a whole lot more, both on the tuck and the cards. Here, the foiling is almost washed out since it's all over the place. Obviously you get some contrast where the holographic foiling is more pronounced over lighter surfaces than over the darker surfaces, but this is a classic illustration of less would've been more in regards to the holographic foiling.

And of course, at the end of the review, the critique on the handling of the deck (or the lack thereof) was probably the deal breaker for me. I was pretty disappointed with the handling of the original Legal Tender deck, and these look like they'll be even worse. USPCC and Carta Mundi have proven that you can have foiled decks with awesome handling. EPCC clearly has a long long ways to go. Covid-19 has really tightened my budget for playing cards and I was waiting to see if I should go for these new Legal Tenders or Blaine's new Blue Metalluxe Gator Backs. I think I'm going to get the Gator Backs, it's just a better overall deck (imo) due to the superior handling.

If handling is a deal breaker...skip these. They are not meant for that AT ALL.

All of the comments above are spot on. Some logistic things from my end.

-This is not cold foil at all and this specific process is something neither USPCC or Cardimundi can do at the moment. I was well soured with Cardimundi cold foil and Metal lux is even more restrictive. If this were done in hot foil you would not even come close to getting the detail we got in some of the small elements, like the background writing.

-I prefer having a matte uncoated tuck case as well from a personal aesthetic perspective, but matte doesn't always mean better quality. However, it is very subjective and even from my own point of view matte does feel more luxurious. However, we would not have been able to achieve some of the foiling detail that we did unless we had full laminated surface. The foiling is Mylar so you will only be able to get as "matte" as the mylar + ink ontop.

-I agree on the comments of the faces being too much holofoil and also think they could have benefited from more selective foiling. If you have a deck, take a moment and look at the back, we approached the back a little differently to test out a different approach to the printing. We printed an opaque design in white, over the foiling, to completely "matte" out the underlying foiling. You can see this in the background paper texture having ZERO holographic sheens to it. This is something that we did not do on the front as we wanted to test how the tight linework preformed on the foiling with NO opaque underlayer. Now seeing the success of the back design we are already tweaking the process and design to update the faces to use the same process as the back and create that more matte too shiny pop that I think you guys were missing and I think that will push this already solid deck even further.

-As for the handling, it is what it is. I in no way had expectations that this deck would feel or handle like a USPCC deck right out of the box and I'm perfectly ok with that. My own focus and pursuit is getting the best of all the different elements I can. I will not print with Cardimundi again, and USPCC just can't do what we did on this deck. On top of that, each card is basically a four-ply construction 2 ply of paper and 2 ply of Mylar top of with heavy ink coverage. I understand for some handling is a big factor and I think that is great, the more selective a collector is the better they will spend their money for their own tastes.

I haven't been as proud of a deck in a long time as I am with this one and I think for the price we set for it, it is a stellar value and incredible example of the leading edge of playing card manufacturing. Even with that said I think with tweaking the process and design just a bit it will be even better, and I have learned even more valuable lessons for the next project.

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm All of the comments above are spot on. Some logistic things from my end.

-This is not cold foil at all and this specific process is something neither USPCC or Cardimundi can do at the moment. I was well soured with Cardimundi cold foil and Metal lux is even more restrictive. If this were done in hot foil you would not even come close to getting the detail we got in some of the small elements, like the background writing.

-I prefer having a matte uncoated tuck case as well from a personal aesthetic perspective, but matte doesn't always mean better quality. However, it is very subjective and even from my own point of view matte does feel more luxurious. However, we would not have been able to achieve some of the foiling detail that we did unless we had full laminated surface. The foiling is Mylar so you will only be able to get as "matte" as the mylar + ink ontop.

-I agree on the comments of the faces being too much holofoil and also think they could have benefited from more selective foiling. If you have a deck, take a moment and look at the back, we approached the back a little differently to test out a different approach to the printing. We printed an opaque design in white, over the foiling, to completely "matte" out the underlying foiling. You can see this in the background paper texture having ZERO holographic sheens to it. This is something that we did not do on the front as we wanted to test how the tight linework preformed on the foiling with NO opaque underlayer. Now seeing the success of the back design we are already tweaking the process and design to update the faces to use the same process as the back and create that more matte too shiny pop that I think you guys were missing and I think that will push this already solid deck even further.

-As for the handling, it is what it is. I in no way had expectations that this deck would feel or handle like a USPCC deck right out of the box and I'm perfectly ok with that. My own focus and pursuit is getting the best of all the different elements I can. I will not print with Cardimundi again, and USPCC just can't do what we did on this deck. On top of that, each card is basically a four-ply construction 2 ply of paper and 2 ply of Mylar top of with heavy ink coverage. I understand for some handling is a big factor and I think that is great, the more selective a collector is the better they will spend their money for their own tastes.

I haven't been as proud of a deck in a long time as I am with this one and I think for the price we set for it, it is a stellar value and incredible example of the leading edge of playing card manufacturing. Even with that said I think with tweaking the process and design just a bit it will be even better, and I have learned even more valuable lessons for the next project.

Thanks jackson for sharing all the details. I’m really interested in the technical aspects and this post is insightful.

One suggestion - is there room for a thinner paper stock, since as you said there are so many layers over it? Lotrek did standard oath with no black core in the paper stock as the hot foil would serve as a black core of sorts. Since as you said there are so many layers, I wonder if you can make the cards 1ply instead of 2ply, to make the cards more “playable” or slightly better handling.

I wonder if you can make the cards 1ply instead of 2ply

That is really tough to pull off with playing cards because between the two layers is either a black or other opaque layer to prevent the bleed of one side to the others, which is a far more serious issue for playing cards. A thinner stock though like the new Cartamundi standard stock is an option, but again those layers used in the new Federal 52 are going to affect traditional handling compared to standard decks without those layers, even if using a thinner stock.

Understand that it was a tradeoff between handling & features here with the latter coming on top. I am still looking to the second wave and even the new Fed 52 is on my radar. I think we need to give it here to JR & EPCC for the remarkable work done on this deck.

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm I will not print with Cardimundi again

As someone who is a little out of the loop, what exactly was your problem with Cartamundi?

EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:14 pm

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm I will not print with Cardimundi again

As someone who is a little out of the loop, what exactly was your problem with Cartamundi?

Check out the Invocation Kickstarter Update 7 onwards. Seriously delayed. JR went into the details in his IG updates last year, but the updates will give you a hint of what happened. Took forever for Cartamundi to print the decks.

Eric Lee wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:37 pm

EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:14 pm

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm I will not print with Cardimundi again

As someone who is a little out of the loop, what exactly was your problem with Cartamundi?

Check out the Invocation Kickstarter Update 7 onwards. Seriously delayed. JR went into the details in his IG updates last year, but the updates will give you a hint of what happened. Took forever for Cartamundi to print the decks.

Honestly, the delay wasn't the big breaker for me and Cardimundi. It was simply they promised they could deliver something that I paid for and was a crucial design element of the invocation platinum edition, which ironically enough was the exact thing that EPCC was able to deliver on with Legal Tender and is also the crux of making a deck like Legal Tender work, and they didn't deliver and left me hanging. The only company I have EVER worked with that has delivered what promised and if they didn't deliver done everything they can to deliver what I want and make it right is EPCC. So for me, that solid, and honest relationship is much more valuable than handling, card stock, and just about every other aspect of deck design and production. These are all my own opinions formed from my own experiences and not the same for everyone.

Sorry for the huge run on sentence.

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm Now seeing the success of the back design we are already tweaking the process and design to update the faces to use the same process as the back and create that more matte too shiny pop that I think you guys were missing and I think that will push this already solid deck even further.

Wait a second. So are you saying that there is going to be a Legal Tender v2.0 that will have a more refine holographing that will better showcase selective elements of the cards?

scottbre wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:09 am

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm Now seeing the success of the back design we are already tweaking the process and design to update the faces to use the same process as the back and create that more matte too shiny pop that I think you guys were missing and I think that will push this already solid deck even further.

Wait a second. So are you saying that there is going to be a Legal Tender v2.0 that will have a more refine holographing that will better showcase selective elements of the cards?

Reads like it. That'll be dope.

Great post from Jackson btw. Agreed that for 15$ this is a great bang for your buck (e.g. 16€ for the new Roses or 15$ for these? Not even close to being a serious question) and super awesome that you keep tweaking and refining. However, even before the post I've decided to pass on this deck. Like some, my budget is too tight to get a deck I'm not sold as well.
I would love to get one to support KWP, but I don't even have to, seeing the great (well deserved) success.

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:23 pm
-As for the handling, it is what it is... I understand for some handling is a big factor and I think that is great, the more selective a collector is the better they will spend their money for their own tastes.

I like a deck that can handle well. Hell, I think most of us do. And it's totally fair to judge the handling of a deck of cards. But with reasonable expectations. Just because a deck of cards has a really awesome and unique feature doesn't mean that it should ignore any other aspect that makes it a complete deck of cards. But this deck was clearly not printed for use with XCM.

I personally don't see how anyone could look at this deck and think it handles like a deck of Cincinnati Tally-Ho's. Sacrifices have to be made to push the envelope. I don't know if anyone is straight up pissed about the handling but it should have been something expected with what's going on here.

EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:25 pm The 2020 version is 20 mm thick with no wiggle room inside.

Reading this made me remember you Paul (@vasta41)

guru wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:48 am

EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:25 pm The 2020 version is 20 mm thick with no wiggle room inside.

Reading this made me remember you Paul (@vasta41)

Yessir, I like me some wiggle room.

It's a given that any one deck cannot satisfy everyone. When you produce a deck, you have to have a target demographic. Having said that, it's better to have a deck that is versatile and checks as many boxes as possible to appeal to the broadest group of people so you can increase sales. Collectors are only a very small subset of consumers of playing cards. The vast majority of playing card consumers actually use their decks, unlike many of the collectors here. So for me, how well a deck handles and lasts with use is as important as the design itself, and I'm not even talking about cardistry grade handling, but at a fundamental 'shuffle and deal' level of handling.

A deck designer like (plug in the name of your favorite designer here) can make the most utterly exquisite, technologically advanced deck of cards known to mankind, but it will be utterly dwarfed and crushed in sales by the humble Bicycle Rider Back. Again, the vast majority of people who buy decks do so to use them, it is the intended purpose of cards. I know, I know, many of you have already forgotten the first two sentences of this post and are saying, "Jackson isn't appealing to the casual home game player but serious collectors!" But is he really? This is an unlimited deck. He did an initial 5000 deck print run and can/will do more in the future. The deck is certainly priced reasonably (given the abundant holo foiling), unlike his uber expensive limited decks. Jackson quickly sold out the initial 2000 decks, and will probably do fairly well with the remaining 3000, but what about after? The typical collector buys one deck, and a few buy multiple decks. For decks that are just for collection purposes, I usually get 3 decks (at least one to remain sealed and at least one to use). For decks I really like, I usually get a half brick to full brick because I'll use them up. Ironically, Jackson may have unintentionally limited his unlimited deck because of the disregard for handling. All the collectors who want a deck got one. But it is the users, not collectors, who sustain long term sales because they're repeat buyers and that's why handling is so essential.

When I got the original Legal Tenders, I was pretty disappointed that they handled so poorly. But I thought even though these don't even fan well, it's still a good looking deck and I can use use these for my weekly poker game at least. We play Texas Holdem and poker night lasts 4-5 hours, but unfortunately after couple of hours the Legal Tender deck got so clumpy it wasn't even pleasant to shuffle and deal and we had to swap them out. While I'm not encouraged by the reviews about handling, I'll probably still pick up a couple because I like Jackson and for the curiosity factor. There are so many excellent decks coming out these days that are well-designed and handle well it's hard to make space for a deck that lacks something so fundamental as good handling.

Back in 2016, Gamblers Warehouse put out an EPCC deck called the Alloy deck. They had 3 versions and had holo foiling on both the fronts and backs of the cards. The design of the Alloy deck was decent, but the holo foiling effect was very striking and they had the Master Finish and handled pretty well (for an EPCC deck, that is). That holo foiling seems similar to what I'm seeing but I guess I'll have to compare once I get the new Legal Tenders. Perhaps it won't be possible, but it would be nice if somehow the holo foiling techniques can be merged between the two decks to improve handling.

Just to follow up, I received mine on Monday. I ordered 8 because i thought they would make great gifts for my poker friends. I opened one of them and I will say that I am very happy with this deck. I do agree with the statements on the holo foiling on the face cards that if it was a little more subtle then it would look better. That being said they still look amazing as is! I am a collector as well as a player. I don't do cardistry but i do like to hold cards and shuffle them throughout the day, so I do like some handling for faro shuffling, etc. This deck is the thickest I have currently and when you first open it it does take time to break them in with all the foil on them. after playing around with them for a day I have really no complaints on handling. I watched the review from the card guy and I can tell you for my experience when I fan the cards they fan better then what I saw from his video. Do they fan perfectly? no, but they aren't clumping if you break them in a bit. Again I am no cardist trust me! I suck at it haha. But I totally love these cards and for sure will use them for poker nights, I think they will hold up just fine. The one thing I will say is that the deck was already a tight fit in the tuck but once you use them a bit and they expand even more they are EXTREMELY tight in the tuck case. But again, for the collector in me, these are stunning! For the player and handler in me, these will more than suffice. IMO

My decks just arrived in the mail. First, this is an awesome deck for $15. Period. Does it have some issues in my opinion? Yes.

First, I do agree that it is a bit too flashy. I can't believe I am even saying it, but it is a bit blinding as I handle it right now. I think that alone makes it difficult for game night, which is a shame. I am glad that Jackson is thinking about making some changes in this respect. I think throttling it back just a bit will really help this deck. I am fine with the backs being blinged out, but those number cards are a bit much IMHO.

Are the cards thick and the handling maybe a bit difficult? Yeah, but that isn't much of an issue. That is kind of like me complaining that an ingot of gold is heavy. The face cards? Wow. I love them.

Overall, a terrific deck and great value. Now, if Jackson changes them next time, these will be insanely rare with only 5 thousand decks made.

I missed out on the first release as we assumed there were going to be 5,000 printed and Jackson said not to worry, there will be plenty for everyone. I was kayaking on the Payette River in McCall, Idaho, so not too sorry about missing out, although I am anxious to see this deck that has caused so much discussion.

In running some numbers though, if Jackson has 400 subscribers to each of his 5 subscriptions, then that means yeah, 2,000 loyal followers each scooped one up. However, we all know that many of the subscribers are in multiple subscriptions. It is just fun to speculate:
1) how many actual subscribers there are in total
2) how many people bought multiples of the initial 2,000 release
3) how many loyal followers Jackson has that are not subscribed to any of his subscriptions
4) how fast will the next batch of 3,000 sell out
5) will people that bought some of the initial 2,000 be back for more

It's a warm Tuesday afternoon and I have nothing better to think about. Maybe I should go jump in the pool.

4) 50 min
5) Very few

Here's a cocktail for the pool time .