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I have been around and participated in enough Kickstarter campaigns to appreciate that running a Kickstarter campaign is stressful for anyone under the best situations, when it doesn't go to plan, it is much more so stressful. I have observed people I would consider emotionally strong individuals suffer the strain of dealing with a difficult Kickstarter campaign. Now I appreciate the stress it puts creators in even more.

It is a point of reflection for me. If you all see me come even faster to the defense of a creator struggling to deliver a Kickstarter project, I hope you can excuse me.

Okay, I'm just on my 4th kickstarter at this point.
I'm just hoping this would not be a defense for a creator to not fulfill a project.
Creators run the project on their free-will, backers don't force them to. It's also up to them to determine the appropriate prices and goals so funding shouldn't be an issue.

Backers back on their free will as well. Nobody forces someone to back a kickstarter, too.
If you gamble be prepared to lose money. Easy as that. Everyone with their head in the right place knows that there is zero aka zilch aka 0.00% aka no guarantee at all that you get pledge rewards! Dunno why seem to not get that. Kickstarter wants it to appear to be otherwise (because they earn money, duh) but the track record shows what's up.

TL;DR: If you don't wanna risk getting burned, don't do kickstarters.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:13 pm Backers back on their free will as well. Nobody forces someone to back a kiclstarter, too.
If you gamble be prepared to lose money. Easy as that. Everyone with their head in the right place knows that there is zero aka zilch aka 0.00% aka no guarantee at all that you get pledge rewards! Dunno why seem to not get that. Kickstarter wants it to appear to be otherwise (because they earn money, duh) but the track record shows what's up.

TL;DR: If you don't wanna risk getting burned, don't do kickstarters.

It is definitely true that there are no guarantees but I choose to think of it more as a crowd fund to produce a product and not a gamble or investment. If it is seen as a risk then that will be it's downfall as people will stop investing in projects if they see a trend of creators not fulfilling or just the thought of a possible lost investment. It has already soured a lot of people in the community but to say that you invested and oh well it didn't work out is bad PR and that creates a bleak outlook. It is commonly accepted that playing card producers use ks as a store for their benefit so why would we say, "too bad, so sad" when producers don't hold up their end of the deal.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:13 pm Backers back on their free will as well. Nobody forces someone to back a kiclstarter, too.
If you gamble be prepared to lose money. Easy as that. Everyone with their head in the right place knows that there is zero aka zilch aka 0.00% aka no guarantee at all that you get pledge rewards! Dunno why seem to not get that. Kickstarter wants it to appear to be otherwise (because they earn money, duh) but the track record shows what's up.

TL;DR: If you don't wanna risk getting burned, don't do kickstarters.

Yes, that's correct. But we need to meet in the middle or else Kickstarter wouldn't have existed in the first place.

What I was pointing out is the stress the creators bear when projects don't go as planned. It's the creator's responsibility to manage the backers expectations. Communicate when the project is failing, explain where the money is lost. "No guarantees" is not an excuse to be ghosting the backers. Creators like that is when Kickstarter becomes a gamble. I understand when a project fails due to circumstances, but I won't like the feeling of being scammed.

Bradius wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:21 pm I have been around and participated in enough Kickstarter campaigns to appreciate that running a Kickstarter campaign is stressful for anyone under the best situations, when it doesn't go to plan, it is much more so stressful. I have observed people I would consider emotionally strong individuals suffer the strain of dealing with a difficult Kickstarter campaign. Now I appreciate the stress it puts creators in even more.

It is a point of reflection for me. If you all see me come even faster to the defense of a creator struggling to deliver a Kickstarter project, I hope you can excuse me.

I would reiterate what Bradius said

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:15 am

Bradius wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:21 pm I have been around and participated in enough Kickstarter campaigns to appreciate that running a Kickstarter campaign is stressful for anyone under the best situations, when it doesn't go to plan, it is much more so stressful. I have observed people I would consider emotionally strong individuals suffer the strain of dealing with a difficult Kickstarter campaign. Now I appreciate the stress it puts creators in even more.

It is a point of reflection for me. If you all see me come even faster to the defense of a creator struggling to deliver a Kickstarter project, I hope you can excuse me.

I would reiterate what Bradius said

I would like to think (and hope) that any stress he experienced was way, way beyond playing cards.

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:04 pm Okay, I'm just on my 4th kickstarter at this point.
I'm just hoping this would not be a defense for a creator to not fulfill a project.
Creators run the project on their free-will, backers don't force them to. It's also up to them to determine the appropriate prices and goals so funding shouldn't be an issue.

Dude what??? Someone killing themselves as a defense to not fulfill a project? I really hope you didn't mean that at all. Maybe it's time for this thread to become locked.

"His tragic death can't be a defense for not fulfilling his deadlines." sounds like something from Monty Python or something. I don't understand how anyone can say things like that and be serious.

I want to just go over my new appreciation of what it means to me to be a "backer". It means that I am going to SUPPORT my creators and encourage them in their efforts to bring THEIR vision into reality. Kickstarter is not like shopping at the mall. There are a ton of things that can, and often do, go wrong. The more manufacturers or transportation chains are involved, the more challenging the project. I have been involved in more than a hundred kickstarter campaigns, so I think I have seen it all. Heck, just Lotrek is a great case in point. A warehouse fire destroyed his remaining inventory once (and a lot of other projects too). The Greek customs refused to release a shipment for him to finish some decks and sent them back to Asia! He ended up having to reprint the decks in Greece. My first Kickstarter was never fulfilled. It just happens for so many reasons.

I choose to believe that all of the creators start with all of the best intentions. If I didn't believe that, then I shouldn't BACK them. And, if I do and I want to see their vision brought to life for the support requested, then I should BACK them. I wish Kickstarter would do a better job of not treating their platform as a marketplace. It really isn't, and so I want to encourage those of you reading this to not treat it as a marketplace. There are risks involved.

For the record, I struggled with issues similar to Andrew. When you are in a dark place, it can be terrifying and hard to see a way out. Thankfully, I had the support of family and friends that helped me through that dark time. My daughter is at college and a boy in her apartment jumped out from his 6th floor apartment a couple of months ago. Every loss is tragic and I hope we spend more time supporting and helping others. I can tell you I am sure going to be more supportive of my creators going forward. Again, please be understanding if I am quick to come to their defense in the future. It comes from a good space. I am not trying to be critical of commenters, but supportive of creators.

(Strag) Dude what??? Someone killing themselves as a defense to not fulfill a project? I really hope you didn't mean that at all. Maybe it's time for this thread to become locked.

I don't think it's meant the way you and masagin are interpreting it. Best to wait and see a more thorough explanation. As for 'locking' the thread, I don't agree with that at all. I hope you are not in charge of such things. We are all adults and can handle a civil discussion. People may be able to find comfort or make some kind of sense out of this whole tragic event if they are allowed to talk it out. If you disagree with me then you can use that 'add foe' option that you suggest others to use when you read something you don't like.

masagin303 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:23 am "His tragic death can't be a defense for not fulfilling his deadlines." sounds like something from Monty Python or something. I don't understand how anyone can say things like that and be serious.

You did not quote him accurately. He did not say his tragic death would be the defense. He may have been implying something else.

CCwonder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:07 am

masagin303 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:23 am "His tragic death can't be a defense for not fulfilling his deadlines." sounds like something from Monty Python or something. I don't understand how anyone can say things like that and be serious.

You did not quote him accurately. He did not say his tragic death would be the defense. He may have been implying something else.

Yes, I was paraphrasing the original to stress the absurdity of it.

It was my feeling (and my hope) that the quote was indeed saying something else - more on the tact of if this were a hoax being used as an excuse.

In any case i would like to simply put it to bed if at all possible - we can do better with what we post here…

There are serious topics to discuss here, regarding how we treat creators who are having trouble, often when we don’t have much information as to what is going on with them - but frequently enough we hear direct reports of mental issues and people still pound on them due to distrust, or worse, lack of caring.

There are also a lot of people affected by this that could use a little soul soothing. (and I hate to have to type this bit, but I don’t mean financially effected, I mean emotionally effected - and yes, we are pushing people who are having issues with financial loss to other parts of the internet as we have made the determination that is just not appropriate here)

Plenty to post here thats more fitting.

A users post was deleted as they took offense at my moderation in this thread. They felt it should have read “that the mod finds more fitting”

Fine, call it that. That’s what it is.

I see the need here to fill the role of “Health and Safety Department”, and to do it better than KS did it. This thread is going to be a healthy place, and in that regard a safe place.

In the regard to being a safe place for free speech or other tangled discussions, I’ve made it pretty clear - talk to me about it in a PM, and do it next week - I just don’t have it in me to debate that at the moment as it breaks my heart I have to.

Posts that don’t belong will be deleted, users making me do that too often will be banned for a week.

I do know how complex this topic is, and the range of emotions and desired topics of discussion will vary - do not get the impression I intend to contain it to some type of tribute.

I say this specifically because there are obvious problems with that - when in this topic - so as not to give some other fellow the impression that they will get some nice tribute and correct their current awful condition by taking the same path.

I have had a friend try to go down that path, and I know how difficult it is to intercept them - they don’t need any grease speed their journey.

Frankly there are few resources for mental health when you really need them, and being under the cloud of a current failure and financial responsibilities to customers you can’t meet is something that can be hard to see out of - but its just a cloud, and the outside of it is much bigger than the inside - and people step out of them all the time. I don’t know what made up his cloud, or how big it was, but it was still bigger on the outside, it always is.

This path only hurts more people, it helps no one, it solves nothing, it is nothing but sadness.


I will add that once, many many years ago I was under a pretty dark cloud - and that puppy seemed to stretch on to cover the whole world. No matter where I went, how far I traveled it covered me - took a long time to get out of that, turned out it wasn’t nearly as big as I thought, it was just a combination of following it around and dragging it with me.

The main resource for anyone struggling with inner demons is being able to talk about it. There needs to be lines of communication that lead to understanding, awareness and support. Every line of discussion holds a significance to someone and can be the path to each and everyone's own calm state.

In the US, dialing 988 or 866-903-3787 or visiting https://mentalhealthhotline.org/ are the national resources.

I have had to speak with them to try to get some assistance for a family member once - it can be pretty difficult to find the proper assistance using them beyond speaking on the phone, such as arranging for some type of out patient care, due to the resources being so overburdened in most states.

Anyone knowing of better resources, please post…

In the UK it is Samaritans, dialing 116 123 or visiting https://www.samaritans.org/

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:27 pm I do know how complex this topic is, ...

Not really complex. One lost it all. So this is not really the place imho opinion to talk about lost money or not fulfilled kickstarters. The general section is a place for that. Upon the news of Andrew's death and the confirmation Strag posted this thread should have been locked indeed.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:37 pm

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:27 pm I do know how complex this topic is, ...

Not really complex. One lost it all. So this is not really the place imho opinion to talk about lost money or not fulfilled kickstarters. The general section is a place for that. Upon the news of Andrew's death and the confirmation Strag posted this thread should have been locked indeed.

This thread has always been about anything in regards to the Monte Carlo campaign. Imho opinion it should remain that way. There is nothing wrong with starting a new thread to pay tribute to Andrew Dodds if that is what someone wants to do. It is a complex situation as G has said and has many emotions and opinions involved. I don't think it's a good idea to stop people from expressing how they feel. The conversation has already had boundaries set upon it so I see no need to 'lock it down'.

Sometimes, the size of the moment ,especially those created by tragedy, are larger than the answers to small questions and the need for the last word. This is one of them. Its useful to learn when to recognize them.

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:34 pm Sometimes, the size of the moment ,especially those created by tragedy, are larger than the answers to small questions and the need for the last word. This is one of them. Its useful to learn when to recognize them.

It is my life experience that has shown me that when tragedy strikes, that is the time when people need the most answers. By me having a different opinion than you, does my comment fall under one of your categories of small questions or having the last word or possibly that I haven't learned the useful lesson that you have provided? I am sorry but I do not agree with the sentiment of your comment. It has condescending undertones. I hope that you find peace and comfort with your loss.

I moved my office, so my collection is all in boxes. I was able to locate my set of the original VXD set, which Andrew kindly was able to set me up with. Also included is a set from the Las Vegas Diffractor set. These are just some amazing display pieces to showcase these decks.

guru wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:02 am

guru wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 6:06 am

VXD wrote:Guru

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I'll take a bet with you now that in 5-10 years time, most of the top designers (of custom playing cards) will be working with Print Finishers, rather than playing card factories. It makes sense, because these print finishers can easily do what playing card factories do, but the reverse does not apply. Plus a top-end print finisher is set up business-model wise to produce smaller runs of high value product, which better suits the direction that the (custom) playing card market is going. The only 'trade secret' that playing card factories possessed (until recently) was their card-sorting machines, but these days with China reverse-engineering simple machines and the power of web searches and easy communication, that barrier is gone. The rest is a piece of cake. And CHEAP. Card sorting machine = $50K. Cutting machine = $110K. Cello-wrapping = less (but not exactly sure). Compared to a $1.5M machine.

Remember, Cartamundi etc make most of their cash from selling very basic cards to casinos. 90% of revenues. Custom playing cards is not their focus at all and they cannot survive easily by just supplying the custom playing card market. Too many of them too.

Give it a few years....you'll see the shift. Bets?

Sorry, I missed this and would love to bet on this. I am good sport & it will just be fun to come back after 5 years ( 10 years sound too far ahead), and use this same thread and conversation again. I have already bookmarked this post and put up a reminder for May 4th, 2025. Why not May 3rd? Because I like 4th more.

It will also be great to still have UC and all these folks that are regulars now. And to be specifically clear, after 5 years, the most of the designers of custom playing card deck will still be printing their decks (some already do their tucks with them so that rules out and here we are talking about cards) through playing card factories and not print finishers.

I think it will be great for both of us to come back after 5 years and comment on the current situation then.

May the fourth be with you.

Had a reminder set up for the wrong date n year. Anyways, I think the bet is still on . 2 years more to go.

I got reminded of the bet and came here. Read the terrible news. RIP Andrew. Your first deck will always have a special place in my collection.

The future is really challenging to predict. If you had told me a few years ago that Cardamundi would purchase USPCC and then close their Belgium playing card production followed by completely shutting down custom playing card production, I would have though that would be preposterous. Reality slapped me in the face. Thankfully WPCC and some others have stepped up is awesome.