THUNDERDOME: On the topic of Pride / Rainbow branded products

[theCapraAegagrus]

I would say that the entire post was in no way straw-man, it was a valid response to your thinking that people all had to be heterosexual due to some reproductive imperative. Or that all heterosexual people must procreate.

You used an abundance of terminology that are non-sequitur. You're arguing against points that I have not made. That's a straw-man. The entire thing.

My posts did neither of the things that you said in this comment, alone.

[GandalfPC]

The mental health crisis is better served if you don’t go around thinking that telling people that they can’t be the way they are because you don’t accept it - which is precisely what leads to the high suicide rates and depression issues.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The fact that you are textbook genetic male gender by a chromosome and physical appendage definition is first of all not even a verified fact - it might be verifiable, but as 1.2% of inter gender people don’t have physical traits displaying that, unless you have been tested you don’t even know how textbook you are.

Further, no one is disputing that there is such a thing as XY chromosomes or that penises don’t exist. They are simply saying that those simple facts on their own do not determine gender identity - even if they do fit the “textbook” definition of gender.

This is the exact problem with this ideology. The idea that there is no textbook man or woman without testing is a complete joke. Please don't respond to me if you're not going to take this conversation seriously.

[GandalfPC]

The only way humankind continues to exist is by reproduction. This is only possible by men and women having sex (no longer true because of our technology, but you should understand the point). Perverting what "male" and "female" means doesn't serve our species.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The mental health crisis is better served if you don’t go around thinking that telling people that they can’t be the way they are because you don’t accept it - which is precisely what leads to the high suicide rates and depression issues.

Again, this doesn't align with anything I've said.

[GandalfPC]

I do take it seriously - I have said that:

1) your claim to be textbook is unproven, not only to us, but to you.

2) that male and female gender as a chromosome based, appendage based measure may be a thing - but it is not the only thing that decides what gender identity a human may be in their brains, how they want to live that makes them feel correct and whole - and it certainly isn’t up to you to determine that for them based upon chromosomes or appendages.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The only way humankind continues to exist is by reproduction. This is only possible by men and women having sex (no longer true because of our technology, but you should understand the point). Perverting what "male" and "female" means doesn't serve our species.

Where did I say, "counterproductive", "our only goal is to procreate", etc etc etc? I didn't. Hence, straw-man. What I said is simply a natural truth. If humankind doesn't reproduce, the species dies. No humans? No persons to be happy, or unhappy. I don't care if someone doesn't want to have sex. I don't care if someone is a biological man and wants to have 10 surgeries to make them look more feminine. What I do care about is that the people who perpetuate the human race continue to aspire towards intelligence and uncovering the mysteries of the universe.

[GandalfPC]

Hel, I have mentioned multiple times that I accept people for who they are so long as they don't rebuke universal truths, but even then they still think I'm "wrong". It's almost not worth discussing at all, sadly. I feel that it needs to be discussed, because of our mental health crisis.

[GandalfPC]

Frankly I don’t find your position to be clear at all - why talk about the human race perpetuating as if it is involved in this conversation at all if you do not find it pertinent.

Of course it is not pertinent, but you are the one who brought it up as if there was some point to it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I do take it seriously - I have said that:

1) your claim to be textbook is unproven, not only to us, but to you.

2) that male and female gender as a chromosome based, appendage based measure may be a thing - but it is not the only thing that decides what gender identity a human may be in their brains, how they want to live that makes them feel correct and whole - and it certainly isn’t up to you to determine that for them based upon chromosomes or appendages.

1. No, it isn't. "Man" has a definition, and I fit it in every way, shape, and form. I am a man and nothing else. For someone looking to spread the idea of "acceptance", you seem to refuse to accept this simple truth?

2. How you want to live does not affect your gender. Biology dictates, not me.

[Timmargh]

My argument doesn't need to be strengthened, TBH. The only way humankind continues to exist is by reproduction. This is only possible by men and women having sex (no longer true because of our technology, but you should understand the point). Perverting what "male" and "female" means doesn't serve our species. [...]

Neither do abstinence, sterilisation, or abortion, but they exist, are practised and accepted.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Frankly I don’t find your position to be clear at all - why talk about the human race perpetuating as if it is involved in this conversation at all if you do not find it pertinent.

Of course it is not pertinent, but you are the one who brought it up as if there was some point to it.

Because it's naturally pertinent. If one doesn't care about the future of the human race, why bother doing anything that does not personally benefit you?

If you don't think that perpetuating our race is pertinent, then this discussion between us is over for me. There's nothing worth discussing if the future matters not, to you.

[GandalfPC]

You seem stuck on gender, as if someone is trying to change it on you, or as if trying to hold the line on that definition was saving the human race from extinction.

Biological gender is what you are arguing about - and no one disputes that (although as we have discussed, there are those that don’t fit into just one or the other biologically at a percentage of 1.7)

Someone wanted to be known under their “gender orientation” rather than being forced to go through life labeled by a biological gender is what you are fighting against, under the guise of “gender”

[theCapraAegagrus]

Neither do abstinence, sterilisation, or abortion, but they exist, are practised and accepted.

Depends on where. I'm not preached to change the understanding of natural life with these concepts. We know one of these to be another highly-volatile subject, too.

[GandalfPC]

So now you roll back to thinking that somehow gender identity is going to destroy the human race, while history has proven that is not the case.

The human race perpetuates - it is not pertinent to the conversation of gender identity.

[theCapraAegagrus]

You seem stuck on gender, as if someone is trying to change it on you, or as if trying to hold the line on that definition was saving the human race from extinction.

Biological gender is what you are arguing about - and no one disputes that (although as we have discussed, there are those that don’t fit into just one or the other biologically at a percentage of 1.7)

Someone wanted to be known under their “gender orientation” rather than being forced to go through life labeled by a biological gender is what you are fighting against, under the guise of “gender”

Trying to change the lexicon for feeling's sake is not something I am going to do. If you're a male, but you change your appearance to be female, and you want me to call you "she"? I already said that I will do that. I will not pretend that you're a woman, though. "Woman" has a definition, and I am not going to pretend that it doesn't. These distinctions are important. If you don't think they are, then we are at a stage of fundamental disagreement. Biology and English both matter to me.

[Timmargh]

Neither do abstinence, sterilisation, or abortion, but they exist, are practised and accepted.

Depends on where. I'm not preached to change the understanding of natural life with these concepts. We know one of these to be another highly-volatile subject, too.

Yes, abortion, for example, is illegal in some places, but not everywhere. Almost every similar statement could be answered with "depends where;" it's a meaningless reply.

[theCapraAegagrus]

So now you roll back to thinking that somehow gender identity is going to destroy the human race, while history has proven that is not the case.

The human race perpetuates - it is not pertinent to the conversation of gender identity.

Again, a straw-man. Nobody suggested the destruction of anything.

It is pertinent. If I go to a dating site with the intention of finding a woman to potentially procreate with, she better be an actual woman.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Yes, abortion, for example, is illegal in some places, but not everywhere. Almost every similar statement could be answered with "depends where;" it's a meaningless reply.

The 2nd sentence in my reply was sufficient.

[GandalfPC]

It is pertinent. If I go to a dating site with the intention of finding a woman to potentially procreate with, she better be an actual woman.

Well guess what - she may or may not be, and you are going to have to live with the fact that you may find yourself in that situation, and that believe it or not, you will likely manage to resolve it and survive.

[Timmargh]

The 2nd sentence in my reply was sufficient.

[GandalfPC]

Biology and English both matter to me.

They are allowed to matter to you - no one else has to take that into account though when living their lives.

[GandalfPC]

Because it's naturally pertinent. If one doesn't care about the future of the human race, why bother doing anything that does not personally benefit you?

If you don't think that perpetuating our race is pertinent, then this discussion between us is over for me. There's nothing worth discussing if the future matters not, to you.

Such talk of the future of the human race implies its destruction.

[theCapraAegagrus]

It is pertinent. If I go to a dating site with the intention of finding a woman to potentially procreate with, she better be an actual woman.

Well guess what - she may or may not be, and you are going to have to live with the fact that you may find yourself in that situation, and that believe it or not, you will likely manage to resolve it and survive.

This kind of attitude is exactly why the ideology will not be accepted. And you will continue to wonder, "why?"

[GandalfPC]

No, what I wonder is why you think internet dating, or dating in general is a good example, or that you imagined I was not prepared to argue the case…

1) on an internet dating site you may find people who lie - that does not set the terms that gender identity is a problem in general, but that you may actually manage to find someone who identifies by a sex other than their birth sex to be human and to also be capable of lying - which again, does not identify the group as a problem.

2) that the person you find on a dating site may be just looking to murder you, or steal from you - it is a generally unsafe place that you may put you in a situation other than what you planned - yet you decided to take the risk of that by going there

3) that dating in person is equally fraught with dangers, even when the woman is a woman by your definition, as she may lie, cheat, steal or bring physical harm on you

4) so what does the fact that someone who was born a man and lives as a woman might misrepresent on such a site, and what does that have to do with the issue?


What I get is that you are against the “ideology” because you are afraid you will end up kissing a woman who was born a man because they might lie to you on a dating site.


I would be more concerned about getting herpes from a woman you met on a dating site that didn’t disclose her medical history, because that will stick with you longer.

Pretty sure the possibility of that doesn’t put you off the “ideology” of heterosexuality

[theCapraAegagrus]

So you condemn lying? I rest my case.

[theCapraAegagrus]

What I get is that you are against the “ideology” because you are afraid you will end up kissing a woman who was born a man because they might lie to you on a dating site.

You seem to "get" a lot of made-up stuff that I have not conveyed. You would be correct if you said that I am not interested in kissing other men.

Heterosexuality is natural. Homosexuality is natural. Bisexuality is natural. Trans-sexuality is artificial.

[GandalfPC]

Artificial is arguable - organ transplants are artificial, artificial limbs are artificial, I don’t see anyone arguing against them due to them being artificial - so if we take the position that trans-sexuality is artificial for the sake of argument, how does that fact alone make it wrong and in need of correction?

Face lifts, nose jobs, boob jobs, tummy tucks, gastric bypass, liposuction - also artificial - as well as separation of conjoined twins and a host of others surgeries both deemed necessary and elective too numerous to mention.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Organs would fall under ownership, which is why there are drugs to try making it work, which it doesn't always (work). I'm not saying that trans-sexuality is "wrong". I am saying that a feminine trans-sexual is simply not a female/woman. I have explicitly expressed acceptance of anyone so long as they do not challenge fundamental aspects of biology and linguistics.

Cut your meat and veg off, call yourself Karen, and present yourself as feminine. I will call you she/her out of respect, as long as you respect biology and linguistics in-kind. It's not fair to ask people to blindly accept every aspect of the LGB+ ideology.

An additional example: We create artificial flavors. That's not "wrong", but I would never call vanilla flavoring, "vanilla".

[EvilDuncan]

I don't think anyone is arguing the biology aspect. Everyone can agree that a trans man/woman is still biologically a woman/man, respectively. (Let's drop the intersex point since it only muddies the points we are trying to make.)