Jackson just did an Instagram Q/A and lots of questions were about his Table Player's subscription he recently teased. Here's what you need to know:
The subscription will not be limited. Unlike his KWP Shorts subscription, anyone will be able to sign up.
There aren't tiers. There will only be one deck every two months (see the next point for more info on this). No tiers and no LE or alternative version. Always just the one deck.
The subscription is charged monthly, but each deck is released every second month. So each month you are paying for half a deck (or deck). That means there will be 6 Table Payer's decks each year, even though it is a monthly sub.
The prices get cheaper as you get more decks each month. The pricing will be as follows (unsure yet if there will be more options):
One deck for $6 each month ($12 per deck, delivered every other month)
Two decks for $11 each month ($22 for two decks delivered every other month; $11 per deck)
A brick for $60 each month ($120 for 12 decks every other month; $10 per deck)
You don't have to subscribe to get the decks. If you don't want to subscribe the decks will be available in the Kings Wild Project web store, at a premium. Each deck will be $15+shipping if bought through the web store.
There is no date yet when the subscription for Table Players will open up.
$12 per deck is a subscription I can get behind. My fear is that Jackson is spreading himself too thin. No doubt the man has talent and great ideas but that's a lot of decks to commit to per year. I would hate to join and feel like I'm getting the "reject decks" while the Shorts members get all the good stuff. Obviously they pay more so they should get more but I just wonder how long he can keep this up.
So far I like what I see and will be keeping an eye on this. My favorite part is that shipping is included.
I'm still not a fan of the short subscription system, and here it's pretty evident that these table player's sub decks are not as artistic as the short sub ones. So there IS a hierarchy in place, the "VIPs" get the best goodies CHEAP, and if any plebeian wants one, given the state of the resell market on eBay and Instagram, it's a disgustingly steep price the layperson has to pay. Even if KW releases those later to the public, the prices are doubled.
What's worse? Jackson endorsing all those resellers on the KW Insta page and stories who are on the sub list (multiple slots most likely), who mark up the price, but who helps with the brand's exposure and publicity.
Sorry, even if there's a slot of short subscription open for purchase, easy pass for me. If this is the business model that KW is seeking after (not to even mention the idea of reaching out to Zach Mueller of FONTAINE to do a possible collab in the future), so be it, KW is a hype brand for collectors and resellers. Given the experience I had with the KW website, USA customers and subscribers are clearly the privileged. Internationals get little chance to participate, the shipping is ridiculously as or more expensive than the deck itself, and get charged additionally for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
"We look at the present through a rear-view mirror; we walk backwards into the future."
-- Marshall McLuhan (Media Theory Giant) Decknowledgy™ (Ted) Instagram Reviews:https://www.instagram.com/decknowledgy
Decknowledgy wrote:I'm still not a fan of the short subscription system, and here it's pretty evident that these table player's sub decks are not as artistic as the short sub ones. So there IS a hierarchy in place, the "VIPs" get the best goodies CHEAP, and if any plebeian want one, given the state of the resell market on eBay and Instagram, it's a disgustingly steep price the layperson has to pay. Even if KW releases those later to the public, the prices are doubled.
What's worse? Jackson endorsing all those resellers who are on the sub list, who mark up the price, but who helps with brands exposure on the KW Insta page and stories.
Sorry, even if there's a slot of short subscription open for purchase, easy pass for me. If this is the business model that KW is seeking after (not to even mention the idea of reaching out to Zach Mueller of FONTAINE to do a possible collab in the future), so be it, KW is a hype brand for collectors and resellers. Given the experience I had with KW website, USA customers and subscribers are clearly the privileged. Internationals get little chance to participate and get charged additional for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
Fontaine x KWP... easy pass for me .
On a more serious note. The subscribers are paying his bills; therefore I can understand that they get a priviledged treatment. Do I like it, not really, but it is what it is. I don't like the way international customers get cut out almost by default aswell and kinda share the disappointment of Deckno. To be bluntly honest, since Jackson didn't release a deck that hit it out the ball park in recent times, I'm not that disappointed like Deckno seems to be, but still.
It is kind of ridiculous that almost every other retailer from the U.S. manages to A) have decent shipping prices and B) does anything possible to please international customers. I just get a brick shipped from the States for a bit more than what a single deck from KWP would cost me shipped. I just labeled a parcel for a trade to Canada; with insurance and tracking for half the price that KWP charges for shipping. The last deck I've send to the States last month was even cheaper.
Let's hope the pricing+shipping for the upcoming Lord of the Rings decks will be a bit more reasonable.
Decknowledgy wrote:I'm still not a fan of the short subscription system, and here it's pretty evident that these table player's sub decks are not as artistic as the short sub ones. So there IS a hierarchy in place, the "VIPs" get the best goodies CHEAP, and if any plebeian wants one, given the state of the resell market on eBay and Instagram, it's a disgustingly steep price the layperson has to pay. Even if KW releases those later to the public, the prices are doubled.
What's worse? Jackson endorsing all those resellers on the KW Insta page and stories who are on the sub list (multiple slots most likely), who mark up the price, but who helps with the brand's exposure and publicity.
Sorry, even if there's a slot of short subscription open for purchase, easy pass for me. If this is the business model that KW is seeking after (not to even mention the idea of reaching out to Zach Mueller of FONTAINE to do a possible collab in the future), so be it, KW is a hype brand for collectors and resellers. Given the experience I had with the KW website, USA customers and subscribers are clearly the privileged. Internationals get little chance to participate, the shipping is ridiculously as or more expensive than the deck itself, and get charged additionally for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
I felt this needed a respectful response so that you could hear my side of the story on some of the issues, as I feel like my words and statements might have been taken out of context.
What's worse? Jackson endorsing all those resellers on the KW Insta page and stories who are on the sub list (multiple slots most likely), who mark up the price, but who helps with the brand's exposure and publicity.
This statement makes it sound like I am actively encouraging people to buy multiple decks to then flip for a much higher price on ebay. When I was speaking of "flippers" on instagram I simply explained that I have no control over what people do with the decks, and further more I have no way of telling on my end that John Doe from Chicago that buys two decks is an avid collector and never sells a thing, apart from Bob Doe from California that buys two decks only always to sell the second. From my end, always, these two people are simply customers who are purchasing a product, so I have to treat them with the same respect and constumer service as all of my other customers.
not to even mention the idea of reaching out to Zach Mueller of FONTAINE to do a possible collab in the future
You are on my Instagram live alot, and you should know, based on my views of the Fontain decks, that this was a complete and 100% joke.
USA customers and subscribers are clearly the privileged. Internationals get little chance to participate,
Yes, you absolutely correct when you say that subscribers are privileged. This is a cornerstone of the entire subscription business model. If subscribers did not receive these privileges, then there would be no benefit or value to having the subscription. Creating the subscription model was something I did to separate myself from the rest of the playing card designers, and creating privileges for subscribers is the main tool I use to get more subscribers. Also of all my subscribers at least 30-35% of them are NON-US, so saying the international customers don't get a chance to participate is inaccurate when you look at the data, (which I know that you do not of access too).
and get charged additionally for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
You have to realize that every time you ask a US shipper to declare a lower value or to change the declaration of the contents of a package, you are asking them to commit a federal offense.
Also, when comparing shipping prices with those of other countries, it is comparing apples to oranges really as the US postage has some of the highest postage in the world. Shipping will always suck, and Kings Wild will continue to always ship and fulfill their own products as it is the best way to ensure the best quality service and product. We have also created our international delayed shipping program for all of the International subscribers that have been received incredibly well.
vasta41 wrote:$12 per deck is a subscription I can get behind. My fear is that Jackson is spreading himself too thin. No doubt the man has talent and great ideas but that's a lot of decks to commit to per year. I would hate to join and feel like I'm getting the "reject decks" while the Shorts members get all the good stuff. Obviously they pay more so they should get more but I just wonder how long he can keep this up.
So far I like what I see and will be keeping an eye on this. My favorite part is that shipping is included.
These are in no way reject deck ideas. They are simply tuck case concepts that I find interesting and want to explore that don't necessarily fit into a thematic subscription like the KW Shorts. As for the workload, all is good, I don't do anything but design playing cards, and now that my crew and shop is set up in Austin I do nothing but focus 100% on drawing playing cards. I already have all six decks for next years Table Players Subscription designed and finished. I'd say give it a shot, and if you aren't completely satisfied, you can cancel it at any time just like with the KW Shorts Subscription.
JacksonRobinson wrote:You are on my Instagram live alot, and you should know, based on my views of the Fontain decks, that this was a complete and 100% joke.
THANK. GOD. I don't always get to catch your IG livestreams, but I have seen enough to see your reaction when people joke about a KWP/Fontaine collab. I threw up in my mouth a bit thinking I missed some big announcement that would basically mean the end of all things good and holy. [relief emoji]
Then I would just like to ask, why are you reposting and sharing those people who clearly are reselling a large bulk of the sub decks and not more of John Does who just love your creations? I don't need to name who those resellers are, but it's becoming more and more obvious these days that they get plenty of exposure on your page as opposed to others. Isn't that just benefitting each other from back and forth marketing?
I admit that I don't have the time to follow through all of your live sessions, and it's not likely that one is able to follow through every lengthy session. So if I had taken any context out of the Fontaine joke, I'm very sorry. However, the reseller shout out and endorsement issue remains. Anyways, I wish KW well with the sub system in place. Unless I see the same effort put into designing for the table player subs that are more open to the public, I continue to see the short sub system as a hierarchy for your willingness to share your best designs only with your inner-circle. As you know, I still appreciate the time when your decks and creations are more widely accessible to the public such as using Kickstarter, but when the ratio between the sub deck creations is vastly greater than the ones you choose to share with the public, and when the sub decks are never reserved a percentage for public releases, I feel it's a pyramid that you've created to reject more people than draw in---deliberately or unconsciously. At the end of the day, lucky to those who get to enjoy your creations, but for those who've waited so long and eventually have to pay so much for them, the duration just wears off the charm. As for shipping, you've explained it clearly this time, and I promise you that I'll never mention this issue again, but international folks will decide how approachable this unforgiving price would be for their wallets.
I'm still looking forward to a change.
"We look at the present through a rear-view mirror; we walk backwards into the future."
-- Marshall McLuhan (Media Theory Giant) Decknowledgy™ (Ted) Instagram Reviews:https://www.instagram.com/decknowledgy
Harvonsgard wrote:It is kind of ridiculous that almost every other retailer from the U.S. manages to A) have decent shipping prices and B) does anything possible to please international customers
Just for balance, even though I have never spoken to Jackson, Nick and Delanie at KWP have always gone out of their way to help me. They even found me an Unbranded Black Reserve Note last month. As for shipping, T11, Ellusionist, Art Of Play, Uusi (I could go on) all charge around the same amount to ship. If you want to see really ridiculous shipping and import fees, check out eBay.
vasta41 wrote:$12 per deck is a subscription I can get behind. My fear is that Jackson is spreading himself too thin. No doubt the man has talent and great ideas but that's a lot of decks to commit to per year. I would hate to join and feel like I'm getting the "reject decks" while the Shorts members get all the good stuff. Obviously they pay more so they should get more but I just wonder how long he can keep this up.
So far I like what I see and will be keeping an eye on this. My favorite part is that shipping is included.
These are in no way reject deck ideas. They are simply tuck case concepts that I find interesting and want to explore that don't necessarily fit into a thematic subscription like the KW Shorts. As for the workload, all is good, I don't do anything but design playing cards, and now that my crew and shop is set up in Austin I do nothing but focus 100% on drawing playing cards. I already have all six decks for next years Table Players Subscription designed and finished. I'd say give it a shot, and if you aren't completely satisfied, you can cancel it at any time just like with the KW Shorts Subscription.
I'm in! Since these aren't limited runs are you going to print with the same printer as the Shorts decks? Or are you going to wait and see that demand first?
Decknowledgy wrote:I'm still not a fan of the short subscription system, and here it's pretty evident that these table player's sub decks are not as artistic as the short sub ones. So there IS a hierarchy in place, the "VIPs" get the best goodies CHEAP, and if any plebeian wants one, given the state of the resell market on eBay and Instagram, it's a disgustingly steep price the layperson has to pay. Even if KW releases those later to the public, the prices are doubled.
Given the experience I had with the KW website, USA customers and subscribers are clearly the privileged. Internationals get little chance to participate, the shipping is ridiculously as or more expensive than the deck itself, and get charged additionally for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
Decknowledgy - I think you are overreacting here and being unreasonably harsh. Firstly, how is the sub system materially different from any uber-limited deck release? When Lotrek is releasing 100 or 150 decks on a first-come-first-served basis, those who managed to get their decks get them cheap if you compare a Lotrek price to an eBay one.
Also, the prices for non-subs are higher but they are not double.
As regards shipping, as a European, I share your pain as I do not like the shipping rates but it is not like JR is charging more than USPS (who have hiked up the prices this year for international packages). Also, again, how is this different from all the KS releases where US backers almost always get free shipping and the rest have to pay for shipping?
Full disclosure, I am a sub holder and while I do not enjoy the card charge every first of the month, I understand how the pricing works and am not going to blame JR for charging me for his artistic work. I should also commend JR and Nick on always responding promptly to my queries and going the extra mile if I have a problem.
Actually I'm with Decknowledgy that I'm not a big fan of the short subscription system (even though I am a short subscriber from the beginning), but I dislike it mainly because the system is not ideal for JR to push himself into even better decks.
One deck a month is a lot, no matter who the artist is or whether he works for full time or not. With the time constraint there are things needs to be sacrificed. JR is super talented in that he's still keep delivering nice decks, I like most of the short subs decks I got. they are 6-8 out of 10, but none of them are 9/10 out of 10, not even a single one for the 13 decks I received (obviously this is very objective, people definitely have different views). Then I ask myself, do I prefer JR to give me two to three 9/10 decks per year, or 12 6-8 out of 10 per year? As I have too many decks already I vote for 2-3 awesome decks
I became a short subscriber because of 1. the limited quantity 2. I believe in JR's talent so I don't want to miss the chance for a deck that's truly awesome. Now that the limited quantity is keep going up (now 400, maybe 600 , 800 in the future, who knows), and for last 13 decks they are good but not great, I don't know what I'm doing now...
Again I'm not saying any of JR's short subs decks are not good or sub par, quite the opposite I never feel disappointed about the deck I get every month, JR is very good at making a deck presentable, but now I feel that I'm becoming more and more picky I wanna focus more on 9/10 out of 10 decks
I'm not sure I agree with Decknolwdgy about the reselling part, tbh I don't think there are so many more buyers there willing to pay premium price. The simple reason is whoever willing to pay already subscribed, otherwise there are sooooo many JR decks and soooo many variations, I don't believe there are that many people have the gut to collect them all at double the price...
Magic Tapp wrote:Decknowledgy - I think you are overreacting here and being unreasonably harsh. Firstly, how is the sub system materially different from any uber-limited deck release? When Lotrek is releasing 100 or 150 decks on a first-come-first-served basis, those who managed to get their decks get them cheap if you compare a Lotrek price to an eBay one.
Yes, I am being a bit harsher here because the reseller market on Instagram has become under some controversial fire over some problematic business models, even untrustworthy tactics including stealing money through PayPal "Friends & Families," and the reason why the IG reselling community exists is exactly for EVADING TAXES and doing business through personal contacts. Again, this is out of KW's reach, like what Jackson stresses, but if KW decides to attach the brand more and more to those hoarders, it's going to cause KW their reputation.
"First-come-first-serve"
You've said it yourself, whereas Lotrek uses this method (and Gio too with his Occultus release yesterday) by not limiting the audience for the ones who will pick it up quick, when has KW done this with their most limited and artistic decks? It's ALWAYS reserved for the subscribers, and only WITHIN the sub list will there be first-come-first-serve. So who gets to enjoys the best decks from KW? ONLY THE SUBS and ALWAYS THE FIRST.
Not with other creators who people with quick hands could enjoy equal opportunity.
That said, I could understand why this model is so crucial to maintaining KW's business, and it's most effective as opposed to KS creators or Patreon creators. So congrats to those who will always be the insiders, and the exempted ones could either go through these insiders, buy at expensive aftermarket options while sometimes risking fraud, or choose other creators that are more willing to open opportunity for everyone.
All these problems would then trinkle down to the issue of problematic resell matters. You don't see much resellers hoarding and reselling Lotrek, Thirdway, or Stockholm17's decks, because at the very beginning of the sale, the decks are already open to the public. KW on the other hand has created this effective exclusive VIP base with the subs for their best-designed decks right at the start, in which ordinary audience has no choice but to go to resellers and eBay. I see this as a systematic loophole.
"We look at the present through a rear-view mirror; we walk backwards into the future."
-- Marshall McLuhan (Media Theory Giant) Decknowledgy™ (Ted) Instagram Reviews:https://www.instagram.com/decknowledgy
Magic Tapp wrote:Decknowledgy - I think you are overreacting here and being unreasonably harsh. Firstly, how is the sub system materially different from any uber-limited deck release? When Lotrek is releasing 100 or 150 decks on a first-come-first-served basis, those who managed to get their decks get them cheap if you compare a Lotrek price to an eBay one.
Yes, I am being a bit harsher here because the reseller market on Instagram has become under some controversial fire over some problematic business models, even untrustworthy tactics including stealing money through PayPal "Friends & Families," and the reason why the IG reselling community exists is exactly for EVADING TAXES and doing business through personal contacts. Again, this is out of KW's reach, like what Jackson stresses, but if KW decides to attach the brand more and more to those hoarders, it's going to cause KW their reputation.
"First-come-first-serve"
You've said it yourself, whereas Lotrek uses this method (and Gio too with his Occultus release yesterday) by not limiting the audience for the ones who will pick it up quick, when has KW done this with their most limited and artistic decks? It's ALWAYS reserved for the subscribers, and only WITHIN the sub list will there be first-come-first-serve. So who gets to enjoys the best decks from KW? ONLY THE SUBS and ALWAYS THE FIRST.
Not with other creators who people with quick hands could enjoy equal opportunity.
I want to say this without sounding like a smart A$$ but, you are buying my decks at a huge premium on the aftermarket (I don't know if you are just saying that for the purpose of this convo) why don't you just become a subscriber and it probably will be cheaper anyways. If you feel like its not worth it or the value is not there, or if you feel like I'm producing 6/10 decks, I will be happy and most willing to refund you your subscription fees. I have a few slots open right now.
That said, I could understand why this model is so crucial to maintaining KW's business, and it's most effective as opposed to KS creators or Patreon creators. So congrats to those who will always be the insiders, and the exempted ones could either go through these insiders, buy at expensive aftermarket options while sometimes risking fraud, or choose other creators that are more willing to open opportunity for everyone.
All these problems would then trinkle down to the issue of problematic resell matters. You don't see much resellers hoarding and reselling Lotrek, Thirdway, or Stockholm17's decks, because at the very beginning of the sale, the decks are already open to the public. KW on the other hand has created this effective exclusive VIP base with the subs for their best-designed decks right at the start, in which ordinary audience has no choice but to go to resellers and eBay. I see this as a systematic loophole.
JacksonRobinson wrote:I want to say this without sounding like a smart A$$ but, you are buying my decks at a huge premium on the aftermarket (I don't know if you are just saying that for the purpose of this convo) why don't you just become a subscriber and it probably will be cheaper anyways. If you feel like its not worth it or the value is not there, or if you feel like I'm producing 6/10 decks, I will be happy and most willing to refund you your subscription fees. I have a few slots open right now.
I'm not here to argue for a slot; after all, I'm still subject to the expensive international shipping fee here.
I'm just perplexed at why resellers are increasingly mentioned in your shout-outs while at the same time you know that the reselling of your decks has been an issue and has been mentioned on several occasions already. You may say that KW has no control, but on the other hand, you could also stay neutral and stay clear of endorsing those people.
"We look at the present through a rear-view mirror; we walk backwards into the future."
-- Marshall McLuhan (Media Theory Giant) Decknowledgy™ (Ted) Instagram Reviews:https://www.instagram.com/decknowledgy
Decknowledgy wrote:Internationals get little chance to participate, the shipping is ridiculously as or more expensive than the deck itself, and get charged additionally for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
International shipping sucks, yeah, but how in the world is that Jackson's fault? Also I feel like I need to point out again that you're complaining that KWP won't commit felony mail fraud
Decknowledgy wrote:"First-come-first-serve"
You've said it yourself, whereas Lotrek uses this method (and Gio too with his Occultus release yesterday) by not limiting the audience for the ones who will pick it up quick, when has KW done this with their most limited and artistic decks? It's ALWAYS reserved for the subscribers, and only WITHIN the sub list will there be first-come-first-serve. So who gets to enjoys the best decks from KW? ONLY THE SUBS and ALWAYS THE FIRST.
All these problems would then trinkle down to the issue of problematic resell matters. You don't see much resellers hoarding and reselling Lotrek, Thirdway, or Stockholm17's decks, because at the very beginning of the sale, the decks are already open to the public. KW on the other hand has created this effective exclusive VIP base with the subs for their best-designed decks right at the start, in which ordinary audience has no choice but to go to resellers and eBay. I see this as a systematic loophole.
That is all nice and well except the subs were also offered on the FCFS basis so those who managed to get in got to enjoy the access to the better decks (although this is also relative, just look at the Six Foot Five and Invocation decks - these are hardly 6/10 decks).
And do not get me started on there being no resellers of Lorenzo’s or Lotrek’s decks - just look at how much some of their decks are being offered for on eBay (I am not a big IG user so can’t say what is happening there).
Well, I have been working on my response off and on for several hours. In the meantime, I see akicer has already responded from a very similar subscriber’s perspective, so I apologize for being somewhat repetitive, but I have spent far too long on this response to just wipe it out, so anyway.
First, I am glad we are having this discussion. I think it is helpful to hear from different people’s perspectives on Jackson’s subscription program. I appreciate Decknowledgy’s perspective. You provided a thoughtful comment on this subject. I appreciate you just putting it out there, and you are not the only person who has expressed similar points. So, again, I think this is a worthwhile discussion. Jackson, thank you as well for your response from your perspective. Thanks for taking the time to respond to these concerns.
I wanted to add my comments from the perspective of a subscriber, and not a reselling subscriber. I have said this before, but I only barely got a spot in the 2018 subscription program. Subscription numbers were assigned by when you got a spot. I am #131 of 150. When additional subscriptions opened up for January 2019, I decided to add a second subscription as they didn’t sell out nearly so fast as a few months earlier and I figured an extra set would be nice for trade or something. When the gilded subscriptions came up, they also didn’t sell so fast (at $45 each I can understand), so I grabbed one slot. I eventually bit the bullet and got a second gilded subscription. I also am now getting 3 standard decks (previously display decks), so my monthly subscription is slightly over $200. That is a significant portion of what I spend on playing cards.
My recollection is that Jackson chose this model as a way to free himself to do some cards that frankly didn’t work well with Kickstarter, like the seasonal decks which would be near impossible to guarantee on Kickstarter timelines. He was not sure many would be interested, which is why the first sets were limited to 150 and printing through MPC and Shuffled Ink, where he could make print runs under 1000. However, a number of others wanted to join the subscription program once it starter, so Jackson expanded the number of Subscribers. By going with a larger number of subscribers would mean KWP could afford to print the 1,100 minimum run with USPCC/Cartamundi/EPCC, which would mean a better quality card stock and finish for the subscription decks (and better tucks as well).
From my perspective as a collector, I like the subscription service as it keeps me from having to constantly rush to try to be one of the lucky ones to get a limited deck. I REALLY like this feature, even if it means I get a few decks I am not as wild about. That being said, I am overall pleased with the designs Jackson has been producing. However, even if you don’t subscribe, $15 each is not a huge cost for cherry picking the designs you like with a Standard Deck. They may not have blinged out gilding and stickers, but seriously. They are the exact same manufactured cards. Heck, I would spend more than $3 to ship out a deck domestically, so it is not like I can get my “sweet” subscriber deal and undercut Jackson in the marketplace. It isn’t happening.
So, I end up with an extra set. I haven’t sold or traded any yet. Just to break even on a gilded subscription set for a calendar year, I would need to sell it for over the actual cost of $540, plus tax of $45, plus shipping cost. I may not have customs fees, but because I live in Texas, KWP has to charge me 8.25% for State sales tax. It is legally required, just like people oversees have to pay custom fees. It is not KWP that sets that, it is YOUR countries. It is what helps fund the services your country offers you.
If I didn’t sell an entire year and pieced them out, I am guessing I would sell some and not others. If I can’t sell them all, I am going to really have a hard time covering my costs. Needless to say, I do not consider my Subscription as some kind of “money maker”. Some might be able to go down that road, but I don’t think that is an easy venture, and I suspect given the few that make there way to eBay, that not many subscriptions are even getting in the market. As card collectors leave, these decks will eventually hit the market. Some may sell for huge prices, but most will probably sell for less than cost honestly.
I do hit eBay, but in general I am a bargain hunter. I am willing to let auctions go. When I do land something on eBay, it can be really nice. I picked up a complete set of KWP Texas series, including the Limited Wood box set for $150. Bargains on eBay can be found. Heck, look at the UC sellers and note how many decks aren’t selling, and they are generally at much more reasonable prices.
The best decks that are likely to come out of KWP next year are likely to be the MIstborn set and the Lord of the Rings set, which are going to be Kickstarter projects, not subscription decks. Subscribers will have to fight for limited sets with everyone else.
Regarding the shout outs, he does that to a lot of people that are engaged in his programs. He does shout outs to me and Sherman to name a few and we are not resellers. I think the people you are talking about spend (in my opinion) insane amounts on his auctions, much to my entertainment (which is why I like watching the auctions). If I am lucky, I can get a bid in early before I am quickly outbid as folks go to levels of insanity. It is a part of how Jackson promotes his brand, which I appreciate for what it is. It is a great way for me to get to know what is going on and have some fun along the way.
Okay, I have said my peace on this subject. I get the criticism of the KWP Subscription, but I want to give this from my angle as a subscriber.
The Crazy Squirrel Deck Hunter - Hunt decks to extinction
JacksonRobinson wrote:I want to say this without sounding like a smart A$$ but, you are buying my decks at a huge premium on the aftermarket (I don't know if you are just saying that for the purpose of this convo) why don't you just become a subscriber and it probably will be cheaper anyways. If you feel like its not worth it or the value is not there, or if you feel like I'm producing 6/10 decks, I will be happy and most willing to refund you your subscription fees. I have a few slots open right now.
I'm not here to argue for a slot; after all, I'm still subject to the expensive international shipping fee here.
I'm just perplexed at why resellers are increasingly mentioned in your shout-outs while at the same time you know that the reselling of your decks has been an issue and has been mentioned on several occasions already. You may say that KW has no control, but on the other hand, you could also stay neutral and stay clear of endorsing those people.
You are aware that if you are a subscriber and do my delayed shipping program you are paying the same each month in shipping as a person from the US the only difference is you have to wait 3 months to get your decks. As for my instagram story posts, I didn't realize they were causing such a rukkus. I honestly just throw people up there that have posted a pick of my decks, I could care less who it is. If you want a shout out just let me know and I can give you one.
JacksonRobinson wrote:
throw people up there that have posted a pick of my decks, I could care less who it is. If you want a shout out just let me know and I can give you one.
Hey Jackson, I try to keep my Instagram dedicated to my artwork to establish my brand, but if we send you a Private Message through Instagram with our photo of your decks could we still get a feature on your feed?
Decknowledgy wrote:Internationals get little chance to participate, the shipping is ridiculously as or more expensive than the deck itself, and get charged additionally for custom fees regardless of requests for marking down the shipping price (which KW rarely abides).
International shipping sucks, yeah, but how in the world is that Jackson's fault? Also I feel like I need to point out again that you're complaining that KWP won't commit felony mail fraud
Hey, I'm not those kind of people who goes back and edits comment to hide my faults, so yeah, you're right, I have my own ignorances for not knowing that that was a felony fraud. So thanks to Jackson for explaining and I've said I won't be mentioning the expensive shipping rate ever again on KW threads .
Thanks to Bradius for the follow-up, I'm grateful for this discussion really.
JacksonRobinson wrote:You are aware that if you are a subscriber and do my delayed shipping program you are paying the same each month in shipping as a person from the US the only difference is you have to wait 3 months to get your decks. As for my instagram story posts, I didn't realize they were causing such a rukkus. I honestly just throw people up there that have posted a pick of my decks, I could care less who it is. If you want a shout out just let me know and I can give you one.
Again, I'm not looking for my own exposure but concerned for those who are redirected to the reseller market. But thanks for the offer, Jackson. Again, I am not a hater of the KW brand, as I've posted many of your adored decks on my page. However, like you've said, this subscription system has SO many insider details that an outsider will never know: I've never knew that there was a delayed shipping program that would mark down the accumulated shipping. For the same reason, as a fervent observer of the Instagram playing card scene, there are just some problems that I'm observing that I find it important to address and speak out that's related to the sub system. Have you ever thought about just creating a page on your site just to list the structure, program, benefits, and restrictions of your subscription services (both Shorts and Table)?
With that, I think I've hijacked this thread too long with the KW Short Subs issues that I'm seeing out there. No doubt I would happy to become a sub and to review the decks, especially knowing about the delayed shipping program. Just that I didn't come here to ask for the chance, but to address some issues that I've observed. Thanks for the honesty, Jackson and all who's responded so far.
"We look at the present through a rear-view mirror; we walk backwards into the future."
-- Marshall McLuhan (Media Theory Giant) Decknowledgy™ (Ted) Instagram Reviews:https://www.instagram.com/decknowledgy
I totally understand and appreciate your thoughts. The Table Players subscription is really just my next evolution experiment with the subscription model and tweaking it in a few ways, to address some of the issues you are speaking of without totally overhauling what seems to be working incredibly well. The new Table Players Sub, like some, have mentioned will be unlimited and open to all and to as many want to subscribe.
As a response to those that would rather me do 2-3 "Knock it out of the park decks" instead of a bunch of "not knock it out" decks, my approach to my work and my art is different than other artist and designers. I think too many times designers/artists in general, and playing card designers specifically get WAY to focused on having to make EVERY deck better than their last. This mentality more often than not breads overworking an idea and sometimes never finishing an idea because someone is striving for perfection.
When I was in art school, the greatest lesson I learned in my whole experience (my six years in art school was a complete waste of time.) was in a beginner pottery class. This may be a long explanation but hang in there to the end, and I'm sure you will see my point.
On the first day of class, the professor broke us up into two groups. Then the professor proceeded to create a simple vase on the throwing wheel. The vase he created was "perfect," some would say. He then assigned both groups separate tasks. The first group, he said, "By the end of the term this group is to turn in only ONE vase. The entire group will be graded by the quality of that ONE vase compared to the one I have just made."To the second group (my group) he said, "This group will be graded on the only the number of vases you turn in. You will attempt to make a replica vase of the one I have made but will only be graded upon the overall quantity that the entire group produces."
So both groups set off to task. Throughout the semester group 1, focused on striving for perfection in each vase if a vase wasn't "perfect," they stopped work and started over. My group then began to plow through hundreds of vases. Some were dogs; some were ok, some were pretty good. Both groups continued there paths all the way through the semester.
Finally, the semester was over, and it was time for both groups to account and receive their grades. The first group turned in their ONE vase. They had come a long way, and it looked really, really, good. They received a high grade for their efforts. My group then walked the professor over to 7 to 8 completely full shelves of vases. What was the amazing part was that we had created so many vases, and practiced and honed our skills so much that EVERY vase on the shelves was to the same "perfect" level as the professor's vase. There were also countless shards of broken vases we had discarded into the trash along the way. Once the entire class compared the two sets of vases, it was easy to see, while the first groups' vases were great, none of them came close to the quality of vases that we were pumping out like it was making stick figures.
The lesson I learned, as it pertains to playing cards is this. My focus is to make as many ideas and deck concepts, that I have in my head, a reality. Through that process, a deck that some would have called a "knock it out of the parking deck" 5 years ago will simply be the everyday deck today that people are expecting from me. Sure I'm gonna have decks that aren't "melt your face awesome," but as a whole, my overall quality and abilities will grow to the point that my "just ok decks" are hopefully miles beyond the designer beside me.
It's all just a game and a journey and perfection of the process. If you could see the multitude of crappy designs I have that will forever stay in my "Crap" folder, you would be amazed.
Every artist is different, and every artist's process is different.
One last point that I think is worth stating here is, and I say this from a perspective of following the playing card world for almost a decade now, playing card designers who focus too much on making every deck THE GREATEST DECK EVER, end up creating decks with art styles that become extremely repetitive and bland. They are caught up too much in the hype of making the most incredible deck ever to experiment and push themselves artistically; their for create a plethora of decks that look exactly the same.
Okay, back to the Table Players Series. I don't like cigarettes. Period.
Just from a general perspective, I am okay with #1 and really do not like #3 as I get an overwhelming image of Lucky Strikes, and not in a good way. That said, I really do like #2. So, for me, I am not likely to subscribe to this series for purely personal taste reasons. However, I am sure I will be picking up a couple of the #2 design decks at the non-subscriber rates.
The Crazy Squirrel Deck Hunter - Hunt decks to extinction
I updated my post on Reddit and Aethercards, and want to include the info here:
Shipping details from Jackson (this applies to both Shorts and TP):
Shipping is a flat fee based on your location:
US: $5
CAN: $10
INTL: $15
Separate subs/Multi subs will be charged shipping prices for each sub, but then have discounts applied by KWP to bring the total shipping cost you have paid across all subs down to what it cost KWP to ship your decks to you.
I for one love love love cigarette inspired design and cant wait to sign up
Also there was mention of open slots in the current subscription... How to I get those? I have been regretting not signing up for quite some time now. (I also recently reached a point in my life where I have some disposable income so that makes the decision easier).
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